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Chaos theory and Complex Adaptive Systems - 7/1/2010 8:23:25 PM
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Clement19
Posts: 121
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Recently (over the past 5+ years) I have become interested in a scientific methodology called, among other things, "chaos theory" and "complex adaptive systems".
Basically it started after WWII when they began to make machines that function independently. Think of a thermostat on the house that automatically turns on the furnace when it senses the inside temperature dropping.
So they began to make machines that could sense their surrounding environment, and make evaluations of critical parameters (temperature, pressure, light/darkness etc), and respond automatically according to a preset goal.
And they began to look at humans and other living creatures as goal-setting, biotic "agents" which are trying to navigate shifting environments.
I became interested because I began to see the world as filled not just with things, or objects, but also I began to sense the invisible connections between things. We might call these "fields", like gravitational, electric, and magnetic fields, for instance. Or with humans we might see relationships, where before we just saw people.
Also, I began to see not just things, but things woven together into what we call systems. The human body, for instance, has nervous, skeletal, circulatory, respiratory, digestive, and immune systems, among others, all functioning alongside each other. The marvelous intertwining, interconnected universe began to unveil itself to me.
And mind you, all this was unveiled to me as a believer. When I read about each "agent" in a fluid and challenging "environment" seeking the right set of rules, in order to navigate successfully towards a goal, suddenly the bright simplicity of the gospel of Jesus began to shine like a clear, unwavering beacon.
"Oh! Now I get it!" We are supposed to love God, and love one another..." It was suddenly so simple, so clear, so profound. Jesus had given each one of us the right "instructions", the right "program", the right example, so many years ago. Suddenly all the religious trappings fell away like so much cultural clutter, and the magnificent gospel, in all its bare gleaming beauty, shone before me like a glory I'd never witnessed, and barely even dreamed that someday I would. Yet it was there, right in front of me. So simple I couldn't corrupt it.
So I am wondering if anyone else has had that kind of revelation, either from scientific or philosophical study or anything else.
Also, has anyone ever read anything of this science? It's variously called "cybernetics", "systems theory", "chaos theory", "complexity", "dynamic systems", and so forth. I myself call it "adaptive systems"; i.e. you have semi-autonomous systems, each trying to adapt and survive within its parent meta-system.
And lastly, if any are curious, I have written more on a website which I call "adaptingsystems.com" http://adaptingsystems.com/default.aspx
I would love to have some feedback (and not coincidentally, "feedback" is an idea from the systems analysis methodology) from anyone out there.
< Message edited by Clement19 -- 7/1/2010 8:33:43 PM >
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RE: Chaos theory and Complex Adaptive Systems - 7/1/2010 10:38:16 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5780
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
So I am wondering if anyone else has had that kind of revelation, either from scientific or philosophical study or anything else. Very interesting subject, Clement. It would seem to me that folks who already have an intellectual temperament for science and math and analytical thinking might be more readily impressed by such an approach. Although I must say that this kind of temperament can also be a significant hindrance to spiritual matters when scientism is mistaken for real science. We see this constantly from the agno-atheists posting on these S&O threads who have become so totally enamored with their religion of uniformitarian naturalism that they have no perception of divine revelation whatsoever. Very sad, really...
I don't know if this qualifies, but one of the best examples in my own spiritual maturing process came from a study of the Trinity and how God's created reality of the physical Tri-Universe mirrors His own Triune character. That was an amazing revelation to me and continues to be the very best analogy for explaining the Trinity that I have ever heard.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Chaos theory and Complex Adaptive Systems - 7/2/2010 5:51:46 AM
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SamWeiss
Posts: 78
Joined: 12/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Clement19
Also, has anyone ever read anything of this science? It's variously called "cybernetics", "systems theory", "chaos theory", "complexity", "dynamic systems", and so forth. I myself call it "adaptive systems"; i.e. you have semi-autonomous systems, each trying to adapt and survive within its parent meta-system.
Cybernetics, system theory, chaos theory, complexity, and dynamic systems are 5 different things. They are all very analytical and share mathematical tools, and also one field may make use of the others, but it is confusing to make them all equivalent. (Though "dynamic systems" might be thought of as a special case of systems theory.)
Your short essay at your site is interesting, though I'm not sure what you really mean by "adaptive". Life is adaptive - species evolve for example. However, I'm not sure I would say non-living things "adapt", as the English intransitive verb normally is associated with living things or compilations (or systems) of living things. However, some people do use "adapt" when speaking of non-living systems, so the language can be confusing.
Non-living systems do reach, or attempt to reach, equilibria and that is very briefly touched upon in your essay.
The question for you then: what can we surmise from any one of these topics (e.g., complexity, cybernetics, etc.) in light of current applications to life and society?
As for the personal epiphanies - yeah, I think we all have them of one type or another. Some are more profound than others, some are more cerebral than others. Perhaps it would be a fruitful challenge for you to expand more on your thinking and try to find applications of it?
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RE: Chaos theory and Complex Adaptive Systems - 7/2/2010 8:12:38 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5780
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
As for the personal epiphanies - yeah, I think we all have them of one type or another. Sorry, SW, but you are completely unqualified to comment here. Clement is discussing Scriptural revelation mediated by the Holy Spirit using intellectual catalysts from secular science. "Personal epiphanies" and "trying to find applications" show how little you understand the Truth that Clement and I have been given by God!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Chaos theory and Complex Adaptive Systems - 7/2/2010 12:54:26 PM
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embracing_sonship
Posts: 36
Joined: 7/19/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Clement19
"Oh! Now I get it!" We are supposed to love God, and love one another..." It was suddenly so simple, so clear, so profound. Jesus had given each one of us the right "instructions", the right "program", the right example, so many years ago. Suddenly all the religious trappings fell away like so much cultural clutter, and the magnificent gospel, in all its bare gleaming beauty, shone before me like a glory I'd never witnessed, and barely even dreamed that someday I would. Yet it was there, right in front of me. So simple I couldn't corrupt it.
So I am wondering if anyone else has had that kind of revelation, either from scientific or philosophical study or anything else.
Very interesting topic Clement. First off, your revelation. I belong to a church that has been living this "revelation" for the past 3-4 years. We gave up doing all the religious things, and decided it would be better to just love God and love one another. After all, it was Jesus who said that all the law could be summed up by these two things. Therefore, we could surmise that it isn't so much a scientific or philosophical revelation, rather it was always right there before our very own eyes.
Sometimes, however, as is probably your case, it takes a while for things like this to sink down from our head and into our heart. That is where it can be a life-altering revelation.
quote:
Also, has anyone ever read anything of this science? It's variously called "cybernetics", "systems theory", "chaos theory", "complexity", "dynamic systems", and so forth. I myself call it "adaptive systems"; i.e. you have semi-autonomous systems, each trying to adapt and survive within its parent meta-system.
It may not be as complex as you'd hope, but the company I work for is involved in such systems. We design and build automatic trains for airports, which are centrally controlled by a semi-autonomous system. Each train has to know where it is, and also where all the other trains are in the system. Speeds and routes are determined by preset parameters such as headways and station dwell times, but are also automatically manipulated based on variables such as weather, location of other vehicles, loss of tire pressure, etc.
What I'm interested in seeing is this technology move into the automobile industry. How cool would it be to get into your car and let it drive you across country while you sleep, eat, watch a movie, etc.? A system such as this would be very complex. Do a google search on self driven automobiles and you'll get some idea of the complexity involved.
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RE: Chaos theory and Complex Adaptive Systems - 7/2/2010 2:00:06 PM
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tacitus
Posts: 2581
Joined: 5/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
As for the personal epiphanies - yeah, I think we all have them of one type or another. Sorry, SW, but you are completely unqualified to comment here. Clement is discussing Scriptural revelation mediated by the Holy Spirit using intellectual catalysts from secular science. "Personal epiphanies" and "trying to find applications" show how little you understand the Truth that Clement and I have been given by God!
Man, you're being a little grumpy today.
epiphany: a sudden, intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something, usually initiated by some simple, homely, or commonplace occurrence or experience.
That an epiphany may stem from revelation doesn't make it any less of one.
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RE: Chaos theory and Complex Adaptive Systems - 7/2/2010 2:29:08 PM
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bkj1981
Posts: 1793
Joined: 2/14/2010
From: The Great State of Extreme Confusion
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Clement19,
Great post, and great topic. Chaos theory, as I understand it (which is on a VERY limited basis, mind you) has at its roots the study of Fractals, which are a result of extremely complex mathematical series' that until recently were beyond the ability of humans to evalute, since there were no computers fast enough or powerful enough to run the numbers. It has some promise in the area of understanding fluid flows (which we still can't model on a microscopic level).
*~*~*~*~*
As to the Gospel, my belief is that most people can't possibly understand it. BECAUSE IT IS JUST TOO SIMPLE.
Not one of us is sinless, therefore not one of us deserves salvation. But Jesus died for our sins. As a sacrifice in our place. Believe it. Make HIM the Lord of your life. Have faith in HIM. Love God with all your heart. Love your neighbor as yourself.
Everything else just falls into place after that. The three key words are BELIEVE, FAITH, and LOVE. And the greatest of these is LOVE.
*~*~*~*~*
quote:
ORIGINAL: embracing_sonship
What I'm interested in seeing is this technology move into the automobile industry. How cool would it be to get into your car and let it drive you across country while you sleep, eat, watch a movie, etc.? A system such as this would be very complex. Do a google search on self driven automobiles and you'll get some idea of the complexity involved.
There's no way it's going to happen. If for no other reason than the liabilities involved. Human-made things break. Imagine an interstate highway, in the middle of an urban rush hour. All the cars on automatic, going 40 or 50 miles an hour. And the system faults. It would make an airliner crash look mild. Can you imagine the public outcry from even one such breakdown? I shudder to even think about it.
There's not an insurance company in the world that's going to take on that kind of potential liability for any organization. And there's never going to be an organization willing to build such a system without insurance.
Too bad, though. Because I also love the theoretical concept.
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My New Blog
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RE: Chaos theory and Complex Adaptive Systems - 7/7/2010 6:45:48 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1436
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
As for the personal epiphanies - yeah, I think we all have them of one type or another. Sorry, SW, but you are completely unqualified to comment here. Clement is discussing Scriptural revelation mediated by the Holy Spirit using intellectual catalysts from secular science. "Personal epiphanies" and "trying to find applications" show how little you understand the Truth that Clement and I have been given by God!
Since I don't usually travel in these oxygen rich atmospheres...at least not on these threads...I can only surmise why
Sam Weiss may not qualify; your use of the words Scriptural revelation being the direction in which my conclusion occurs,
not at all unlike those automated cars. (tongue in cheek)
I disagree with your conclusion that SW cannot participate from whatever qualifications he may possess as I am completely
at ease with Scripture's ability to hold it's own in any forum. While Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit gives life to
the words on the pages of the Bible and that we cannot understand God's word with our intellect alone, I am not sure we can or should necessairly apply that across the board.
Frankly, after reading Clement's website home page, I have the distinct impression that Clement himself is not quite at home
in the waters he is swimming in.
Makes interesting reading though. Now I'm going to find the nearest foxhole as the last time I ventured near this section,
immediate reprisal at my lack of reverence for the subject at hand was evident and swift.
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RE: Chaos theory and Complex Adaptive Systems - 7/8/2010 8:47:59 AM
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Clement19
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/27/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
Frankly, after reading Clement's website home page, I have the distinct impression that Clement himself is not quite at home
in the waters he is swimming in.
I think everyone is qualified to comment. Even a drooling baby at the table is allowed to go, "Baa...baaa"
Which my website is perhaps the equivalent of. But I enjoyed it, again perhaps like a small child thrusting his spoon in the air and proclaiming with great seriousness, "Errnn!!"
I merely enjoy being part of the conversation. If anyone gets benefit, that is the Lord's blessing, not my great insight being revealed.
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RE: Chaos theory and Complex Adaptive Systems - 7/9/2010 11:23:06 AM
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Clement19
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/27/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Clement19
... they began to make machines that could sense their surrounding environment, and make evaluations of critical parameters (temperature, pressure, light/darkness etc), and respond automatically according to a preset goal.
Of course, there are downsides to fallen humans making semi-autonomous machines. I will not attempt to count the ways, but the one which sticks out most for me, a believer, is the prediction in the "Revelation" of John that they will make an idol which can speak, and it will amaze the world and cause people to worship the beast (Revelation 13:15). So I am not a robot fanboy by any means. But it seems wise to be aware that "intelligent" machines are now part of the landscape.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Clement19
And they began to look at humans and other living creatures as goal-setting, biotic "agents" which are trying to navigate shifting environments.
This was what excited me, as a christian. I began to re-evaluate the scriptures, especially the gospels, from a "Game Theory" perspective of semi-autonomous agents, each trying to fabricate the best set of rules to navigate a shifting and hazardous environment.
The genius of Jesus' rule set immediately sprang to the fore.
1. In the fallen world, it's "everybody for him/herself, and the devil take the hindmost". Jesus showed that we are all connected, and whenever any stumble we all lose. The strongest should cover the weakest, not oppress them.
2. Moses gave 10 rules (actually many more, but 10 were highlighted). Jesus gave two. Love God and love each other. This is actually one rule, facing in two directions. It is brilliant, it is profound, and it is simple. It is too simple to be corrupted by Satan. "If you do this one rule you will fulfill all the commandments."
3. In the fallen world's economy of scarcity, it is a "zero-sum" game. For me to win, you have to lose. For me to gain, you have to suffer a setback. If I get a hundred dollars, you by definition don't have it. But in God's economy ("oikonomia Theos" -- see Paul's use of this in Ephesians 3:9) we have been given the Spirit without measure. We can share our peace, our love, and our joy with the world. We can call a big feast and give away all our treasures, because there is a fountain ever flowing.
So when I began to study what I called "adaptive systems", it felt like my eyes were newly opened to see the Jesus of the Gospels in a simple, clear, and yet profound way.
Anyway, thanks to all who replied. Sorry I haven't had time to address your posts in the detail they deserve.
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