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Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 10/12/2008 1:36:22 PM
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MyCatSmokey2006
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I believe that the Lord opened my eyes this morning, during an infant's baptism at my church. My denomination teaches that believing in Jesus Christ AND being baptized saves you. They also teach that young children/infants are saved when they're baptized and ae held in their "baptismal grace", until they're old enough to understand the full significance of it. Their parents and sponsors speak on their behalf to teach them the doctrines of the church, etc.
I also understand that in order to be saved, one must accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior and believe that He died for them and their sins, but this isn't stressed in my church, just that if you're baptized, you're saved. Since I'd attended other churches prior to going back to the denomination I was raised in, I've accepted Jesus as my Savior and was baptized as an adult, so I understood what baptism meant.
This morning, after witnessing the infant baptism, it was like God showed me that I needed to find another church where His Word is preached accurately and the salvation by faith through Jesus Christ and the need for a personal Savior is stressed. I'm thinking about writing a letter to my church about this matter, but I want to support my letter with Biblical references so they will understand why I'm leaving their church.
So my questions are as follows:
1. Where does the Bible say that someone speaking on behalf of a child at baptism causes that child to be saved by their baptism?
2. Which verses support or refute the idea that children are saved through baptism?
and finally,
3. Since I've accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior and have a personal relationship with Him, should I be prayerfully considering joining a more Bible-believing church or am I just being too critical?
_____________________________
Melissa
<---Smokey
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 10/13/2008 1:50:44 AM
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GodsMusic
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1. It doesn't say that anywhere.
2. There are not any.
3. Most definitely.
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 10/13/2008 8:40:41 AM
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timf
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Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism?
One might ask if anyone is "saved through baptism".
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 10/13/2008 8:42:16 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1315
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
2. Which verses support or refute the idea that children are saved through baptism?
quote:
ORIGNAL: GodsMusic
2. There are not any.
Question # 2. I would disagree that there are no verses that refute the idea that children are saved through baptism. The first one that comes to my mind is Acts 2:41 which basically states that the Word must be received before adding to the church through salvation takes place. An infant is unable to make that kind of decision.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 10/13/2008 12:00:52 PM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
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This relates to both questions 1 & 2.
While we may not see specific references to children being baptized there are numerous cases where we see it was likely.
According to scripture it seems that anyone (not excluding children) can be saved through baptism.
Jesus commanded the apostles to baptize(Matthew 28:19-20)
Peter says in Acts:
Acts 2:38-39
quote:
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call."
Acts 22:16
quote:
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.
Also we see that:
Acts 16:15 Regarding Lydia:
quote:
After she and her household had been baptized
Acts 16:33 Regarding the jailer
quote:
then he and all his family were baptized at once.
1 Cor 1:15 Paul says
quote:
I baptized the household of Stephanas also;
In these cases we find that households/families being baptized.
If there were children/infants involved, it would be a case of the parents speaking on their behalf.
We also know that according to many writings it was common practice to baptize infants in the early church.
Why wouldn't it be OK for the parent to speak on behalf of the child at that young age?
Parents are entrusted with the well being of their children and are responsible for making many decisions for them which they are not capable of making on their own.
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 10/13/2008 2:53:53 PM
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VBCYouthPastor
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Those are excellent references...however, we're forgetting the most important word. REPENT. "Repent and be baptized... The word repent implies that you're turning away from sin.
Yes, parents are entrusted with their childrens well being. However, they cannot repent for them.
Baptism is an outward expression of an inward decision. It is the example of Jesus in which we follow...as after He was baptized, God the Father was "well pleased" (Matthew 3:17). However, it is not magical. You aren't given special powers, nor granted a "right of passage" in to Heaven. The change occurs when a person has turned away from their sin and accepted Christ as their personal savior.
No one may speak on anothers "behalf."
Blessings!
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 10/16/2008 10:53:24 AM
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PastorPatricia
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There is no verse in Scripture that says that infants should not be baptized. I belong to a church that baptizes infants and I don't believe that said infants are saved.
Baptism is a sacrament and the parents and Godparents make the promises on behalf of the child. At confirmation the child takes vows onto themselves and that is when they are born again. Just wanted to clear up this misconception.
_____________________________
But be sure to fear the Lord and serve him faithfully with all your heart; consider what great things he has done for you. Is. 12:24
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 10/25/2008 2:22:20 AM
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twincities
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PastorPatricia
There is no verse in Scripture that says that infants should not be baptized. I belong to a church that baptizes infants and I don't believe that said infants are saved.
Baptism is a sacrament and the parents and Godparents make the promises on behalf of the child. At confirmation the child takes vows onto themselves and that is when they are born again. Just wanted to clear up this misconception.
then why baptize? how old can one be to be 'born again' and why is baptism done before salvation (repentance)?
why baptize a baby? whats the point? baptism the dunker..
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 10/26/2008 1:28:18 PM
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zoebob
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I also attend a church that baptizes infants/covenant children. Baptism does not save the child.
In the cases where the Bible says "repent and be baptized" the person being spoken to is an adult: a first generation Christian. These aren't general declarations to the apostles on evangalism.
The apostles are told to make disciples and baptize them. The children are disciples from the time they are born. The 12 were called disciples even before Christ died adn rose for them so they couldn't be "saved" but were still discipled. As others have pointed out there are many times when whole households were baptized and we are told that the promises of salvation are for us and our children.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 10/26/2008 7:02:52 PM
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MrFribbles
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I would say there's nothing unscriptural about infant baptism, if one views it as a sign from the parents to the church that they will raise the child in a godly way. However, I see nothing in Scripture that supports the notion that anyone who is baptized is automatically saved. We are saved by grace through faith, not by water.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 10/26/2008 8:44:10 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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quote:
In these cases we find that households/families being baptized.
If there were children/infants involved, it would be a case of the parents speaking on their behalf.
I personally won't base "sound doctrine" on an "if". Hold to the standard of God's Word.
In your search for a new church body I would encourage you to look into the Independent Christian church. You can view much of their history at:
http://www.therestorationmovement.com/
I think your current questions and concerns will make you appreciative of the information and history of that movement.
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 10/28/2008 4:32:30 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PastorPatricia
There is no verse in Scripture that says that infants should not be baptized. I belong to a church that baptizes infants and I don't believe that said infants are saved.
Baptism is a sacrament and the parents and Godparents make the promises on behalf of the child. At confirmation the child takes vows onto themselves and that is when they are born again. Just wanted to clear up this misconception.
Infants are not saved through baptism. Concerning whether it`s wrong or right, I guess the only real danger in this practise would be if somebody comes to a false conclusion about baptism saving you. However I have a question about the sacrament of Bapism for "PastorPatricia".
In my Church instead of going with the sacrament of Baptism for infants, we have what I would call a sacrament of child dedication service. The Pastor simple prays for the infants and their parents and commissions the parents to bring up their child to the glory of God. This is somewhat the same as your Church`s dedication of these babies by the baptism sacrament. However we also believe that salvation is received exclusively apart from baptism by each individual acknowledging the fact that they are sinners, and that by faith they need to believe that Christ died on the cross for their sins. We also believe that at conversion each believer receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This would be similar to what should happen in your Church when a child or adult takes the "vows of confirmation". In my Church we then baptize a new believer as a public sign to others that the individual has become a believer.  My question is do you allow these infants to be rebaptized when they become believers if they so choose? I believe Biblical Baptism is to be based upon the confession of a believers faith which they received at the time they accepted God`s free gift of salvation.
Concerning "MyCatSmokey`s" question about joining a more Biblical Church I would say if the Gospel isn`t being preached, get out. I wouldn`t leave because of the Church`s sacraments concering infant baptism, because in my town we have a lot of good Lutheran Chrurches that practise infant baptism, yet they are good people and their Pastor does preach the Gospel. Eph.2:20 is perhaps a good verse to gauge a Church by. "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone." What is the Church`s chief cornerstone? Jesus or their traditional rituals, be they good or bad. Are they mission minded? And of course the most important question of all, does their teaching about how we will get to heaven when we die line up with what the Bible teaches?  Important questions to ponder.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 11/12/2008 12:07:44 PM
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PastorPatricia
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Sorry to take so long to answer, life has been very busy lately. No we do not re baptize anyone, it's a question I haven't given a lot of thought but I think the reason is that to re baptize you're saying God didn't get it right the first time. Sometime when I have time I'll post in more depth on the whole subject.
In His love and mine,
Pat
_____________________________
But be sure to fear the Lord and serve him faithfully with all your heart; consider what great things he has done for you. Is. 12:24
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 11/13/2008 2:37:26 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PastorPatricia
Sorry to take so long to answer, life has been very busy lately. No we do not re baptize anyone, it's a question I haven't given a lot of thought but I think the reason is that to re baptize you're saying God didn't get it right the first time. Sometime when I have time I'll post in more depth on the whole subject.
In His love and mine,
Pat
Thank-you very much for your answer. They say better late then never. The reason why I asked this question is because I come from an Anabaptist background. My fore-fathers years ago in Europe during the Reformation followed Luther`s reformation, however they took things one step further. Because they believed in "sola scriptura" they believed the Bible taught baptism was to follow conversion. Because a child can not understand the conversion message, and therefore is unable to make a decision about faith, they considered infant baptism invalid. Even though it was against the law of the land at that time, many who were baptized as infants chose to become re-baptized again as adults after conversion. As a result many were burned alive at the stake for their stand on this issue. What I sometimes wonder about is if they believed that baptism doesn`t save, whether your baptized as an infant or an adult, why did this issue become so important that it resulted in the Martyrdom of many of our people? Why wasn`t the record of infant baptism good enough for them at that time? They were all going to end up in heaven anyhows because it`s faith in Christ alone that saves, not baptism. Baptism is an act of obedience to the written Word, and my answer is that I think those people took God`s Word a lot more seriously than we do today.  Today many people who claim to be Christians in our Churches have never been baptized as infants and even refuse to be baptized as adults. I think this is very sad.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 11/21/2008 12:33:06 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4163
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
So my questions are as follows:
1. Where does the Bible say that someone speaking on behalf of a child at baptism causes that child to be saved by their baptism? Nowhere.quote:
2. Which verses support or refute the idea that children are saved through baptism? In Acts 2 Peter tells those listening:
Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."
Please note that repentance is before anything else. The promise of salvation and the Holy Spirit are to the children but they must repent FIRST.
quote:
3. Since I've accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior and have a personal relationship with Him, should I be prayerfully considering joining a more Bible-believing church or am I just being too critical? If you are finding flaws in what is being taught, either try to entreat the leaders with the truth or find another congregation.
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 12/3/2008 9:43:16 PM
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OleFitzHi
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The Bible doesn't specifically say that a child should or should not be baptized. I can think of a few instances where children were probably baptized. The Philippian jailer and Lydia...off the top of my head without looking it up...Both occur in Acts. In both cases, the head of the household came to faith in Christ and the entire household was baptized.
The danger...the real danger...is that a person would place faith in baptism for salvation.
The Bible is VERY clear on this. We are saved by faith in Christ. It is wrong to lead someone to place their faith in baptism rather than in Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
I believe that the Lord opened my eyes this morning, during an infant's baptism at my church. My denomination teaches that believing in Jesus Christ AND being baptized saves you. They also teach that young children/infants are saved when they're baptized and ae held in their "baptismal grace", until they're old enough to understand the full significance of it. Their parents and sponsors speak on their behalf to teach them the doctrines of the church, etc.
I also understand that in order to be saved, one must accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior and believe that He died for them and their sins, but this isn't stressed in my church, just that if you're baptized, you're saved. Since I'd attended other churches prior to going back to the denomination I was raised in, I've accepted Jesus as my Savior and was baptized as an adult, so I understood what baptism meant.
This morning, after witnessing the infant baptism, it was like God showed me that I needed to find another church where His Word is preached accurately and the salvation by faith through Jesus Christ and the need for a personal Savior is stressed. I'm thinking about writing a letter to my church about this matter, but I want to support my letter with Biblical references so they will understand why I'm leaving their church.
So my questions are as follows:
1. Where does the Bible say that someone speaking on behalf of a child at baptism causes that child to be saved by their baptism?
2. Which verses support or refute the idea that children are saved through baptism?
and finally,
3. Since I've accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior and have a personal relationship with Him, should I be prayerfully considering joining a more Bible-believing church or am I just being too critical?
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 12/4/2008 9:44:03 PM
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girlbassist
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OleFitzHi, I agree. That could make people believe that just because the parents are Christians that the kids automatically have salvation. There must be a conscious choice by the person whether young or old.
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 12/5/2008 5:11:44 AM
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greatdivide46
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: girlbassist
OleFitzHi, I agree. That could make people believe that just because the parents are Christians that the kids automatically have salvation. There must be a conscious choice by the person whether young or old.
This reminded me of 1 Corinthians 7:14: For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
I wonder if this verse applies here in any way?
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 12/5/2008 9:11:05 AM
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girlbassist
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Maybe that means that by having a Christian family member, they are more likely to become followers as well? I've known many Christian parents who've had non-Christian children. It has to be free will to me.
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 12/5/2008 9:18:22 AM
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Eutychus
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Bottom line, Jesus tells us in John 3 that one MUST be born again to be saved. No amount of external activity by parents, a church, or the individual can overrule that simple fact.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 12/5/2008 2:27:04 PM
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girlbassist
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There's a passage in I Corinthians 7 of Paul talking about divorce and says that Christian spouses should not divorce unbelieving ones because they may come to Christ by the witness of the spouse.
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 12/7/2008 9:44:49 PM
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OleFitzHi
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God is merciful.
quote:
ORIGINAL: girlbassist
There's a passage in I Corinthians 7 of Paul talking about divorce and says that Christian spouses should not divorce unbelieving ones because they may come to Christ by the witness of the spouse.
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 12/7/2008 10:42:42 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
1. Where does the Bible say that someone speaking on behalf of a child at baptism causes that child to be saved by their baptism?
Nowhere. No one can be a surrogate in the matter of salvation or baptism.
quote:
2. Which verses support or refute the idea that children are saved through baptism?
John 1:12, 13 makes it quite clear that only those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him as Lord and Savior are born again. And without the New Birth, no sinner may enter or see the Kingdom of God. If anyone could be saved by water baptism, this is where the teaching would appear.
For those who claim that baptism is a "sacrament" which may be administered to infants, please note that the word "sacrament" does not occur in Scripture, neither is there any teaching to show that infants may be baptized or saved through water baptism. To the contrary, baptism is always shown to be "believer's baptism" in Scripture.
When the Ethiopian eunuch asked if there was anything to hinder him from being baptized, Philip made it quite clear that the condition for water baptism was genuine faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God. And that is precisely what this man confessed ,and was therefore baptized (Acts 8:36-39). Could an infant ask this question or answer it in the affirmative? If not, then the infant is not a candidate for baptism.
quote:
and finally,
3. Since I've accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior and have a personal relationship with Him, should I be prayerfully considering joining a more Bible-believing church or am I just being too critical?
No you are not being "too critical". It is essential for your own spiritual well-being and growth to be in fellowship with believers who stand on the Word of God and not the traditions of men.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 12/8/2008 11:25:03 PM
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mariadreamer
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The challenge is not only in biblical interpretations but in fundamental assumptions. What is meant by "saved" and what happens at a Christian baptism? If you use salvation as a contract with God to escape hell, then that's not what is meant by the Churches that baptize infants. The Bible was written in the Church and for the Church and which books are to be included into the Bible was determined by the Early Church, which exited long before any New Testament books were written. We are in the same church and continue to experience baptism the same way as Christians have always experienced baptism and what a particular verse means about baptism ties in to that experience. In baptism, one is joined to Christ and it is Christ that saves. Someone here mentioned John 3:5 that one "must be born again", but that was written with reference to baptism! Being born of water and the spirit is the baptism, that is always what Christians held for many centuries and still do (until anabaptists decided to re-interpret it).
There is a difference in reference to the original sin and whether baptism is performed to remove it (according to the Roman Catholic and other Western churches doctrine). However, the East was not as influenced by St. Augustine's teaching on the original sin and so we do not believe that infants need to be baptized to remove this sin. We believe that through baptism God joins a child (or adult) onto Himself. Does this mean that it's magic and you're guaranteed to go to heaven? Of course not, salvation is worked out through faith, so the choice is before them for the rest of their lives - to walk in faith or not. Faith is not limited to rational reasoning. So by "saves" we mean it begins our life with Christ, but it's only a beginning, not the entire salvation.
quote:
Where does the Bible say that someone speaking on behalf of a child at baptism causes that child to be saved by their baptism? Which verses support or refute the idea that children are saved through baptism?
There is a long history of God saving His people (including children) through water, just think of the flood, crossing the Red Sea etc. The Bible does not claim to be a complete catechism set of instructions, but there are certainly verses referring to saving through baptism:
"As many of you as been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27),
"...in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:20-21)
Col 2:12. "Raised with Christ", I Cor. 12:13 baptized into by one Spirit, baptized into one body, which is the Church.
Acts 2:39 The promise is to you and to your children....
I Cor. 1:16 Paul baptized the household of Stephanus.
Acts 11:13 Peter baptized the household of Cornelius.
Acts 16:15 Paul baptizes the household of Lydia
Acts 16:31 Philippian jailer’s household is baptized.
HEBREW word “bayit” is translated “oikos” (Greek Septuagint).
In the OT. “oikos” included all family members up to 4 generations, children (married and unmarried), slaves of both sexes, and sojourners (non-Jewish migrant workers).
Examples of the use of the word "household" in the Bible:
Genesis 46:6,27: Jacob’s household: all his sons, and their children and wives, all the persons of the house of Jacob were 70.
I Samuel 22:15-19: All the household of Ahimelech and his father are killed: men, women, children, infants and all his livestock.
2 Samuel 2:3 David brought up all his men each with his household to Hebron.
2 Samuel 15:15-16 David flees Jerusalem with all his household, leaves 10 concubines to tend the house.
I Samuel 25:6 David sends blessings to Nabal, peace be to your house and all that you have.
Jeremiah 38:17 Jeremiah prophecies against Zedekiah that his household will be killed if he does not obey God.
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3. Since I've accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior and have a personal relationship with Him, should I be prayerfully considering joining a more Bible-believing church or am I just being too critical?
I think you definitely should look for a more Bible-believing church, but who determines what is biblical and what is not? Many churches claim to be biblical, but they can't agree on what the Bible says. The question of infant baptism rocked my world also and caused me to question many assumptions I held and to search the Bible, and to seek God. What I found was not what I expected.
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Christ is risen from the dead,
by death He has trampled down death,
and on those in the tombs bestowing life!
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RE: Is A Young Child Saved Through Baptism? - 12/21/2008 6:22:00 PM
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andresamson83
Posts: 5
Joined: 12/15/2008
Status: offline
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What about the thief on the cross, he wasn't baptized.
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