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Where the races come from? - 3/3/2010 12:41:38 PM
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EaZiE
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Anyone have a good answer as to how the different races of man came about. As creationists rightly ask, "Where are the transitional fossils/species (in magnitude especially)?"
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In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/3/2010 2:59:36 PM
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creaton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
Anyone have a good answer as to how the different races of man came about. As creationists rightly ask, "Where are the transitional fossils/species (in magnitude especially)?"
As evolutionists rightly ask, how did we get 6 billion people of hundreds of diverse 'races' from 4 breeding pairs in just 4,500 years?
By the way - there would be no transitionals between members of the same species.
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/3/2010 3:18:34 PM
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retirednavydad
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By "races", what do you mean? Different cultures have different meanings for the word "race". Do you mean skin color, or other physical features like eyes or hair color or specific locations of populations?
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/3/2010 4:39:42 PM
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GREATHIWAY
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I dont think there is any evolutionary basis for the concept of race.
But Yes the diverisity of our species and not limited to our genetics, but which includes Language and culture is difficult to explain at the short timescales that many believe the bible sets.
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/3/2010 6:53:40 PM
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tacitus
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I believe the Biblical explanation is to appeal to the supernatural -- as in God's intervention at the Tower of Babel and the dispersal of builders and fracturing of the languages. There have also been some rather unsavory theories about certain races bearing the 'mark of Cain".
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/4/2010 11:48:48 AM
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EaZiE
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Let me clarify. There are distinct races: Chinese, Caucasian, African, etc. How come the "extreme" peculiarities. Looking back in history cultures kept within their own realms. I'm simply wondering how so one family has these certain characteristics (skin color, eyes, etc.) if man in general come from the same ancestor. Why would there not be a more subtle transition between the families? Transitional characteristics in humans, not new species. The question seems hard to answer from any perspective- macro and/or micro evolution, OEC and/or YEC. I accept the Babel history. Perhaps an answer might be that the primeval history of Gen. 1-10 is in condensed form handed down (there is much scholarly work in this area) and so there is a much greater time frame in that portion of scripture. This would give more ample time for various characteristics of the separated families to further develop into the "starker" distinctions we see today.
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In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/4/2010 1:11:48 PM
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DanJames
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I don't think that the evolutionist or the creationist would have a different answer for this. Races come from variation in extant genes, i.e. regulatory processes. Overexpression of lip size, nose width, skin-melanin content, eye-socket fat, etc. In this regard, evolutionists and creationists have no reason to disagree. As for the history of mankind since Babel, those who accept the Bible's record of history might disagree with those who do not.
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/5/2010 4:47:42 PM
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EaZiE
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
I don't think that the evolutionist or the creationist would have a different answer for this. Races come from variation in extant genes, i.e. regulatory processes. Overexpression of lip size, nose width, skin-melanin content, eye-socket fat, etc. In this regard, evolutionists and creationists have no reason to disagree. As for the history of mankind since Babel, those who accept the Bible's record of history might disagree with those who do not.
Well, I figured a macro evolutionist might say they were evolved that way according to their adaptation. Micro-evolutionist might say it is environment or extant genes. YEC may say its all supernatural or perhaps extant genes. OEC could be any of these depending on their stance.
Also, it depends on what you mean by accepting the Bible's record. I personally accept the record but I believe that the time frame of the early chapters of Genesis have a longer time frame than is generally accepted. For instance though the book of Genesis was edited by Moses, I believe there are 10 or more previous authors that Moses was quoting of the oral history when he say "these are the generations of (?)". So, this is the account of Shem, may mean there was a time in history that Shem lived in and perhaps was a leader. Perhaps the variety of skin color, etc. was already in place before the confusion of languages. I'm currently looking into this.
I do agree with the variety being extant genes, meaning God "preprogrammed" humans to have these certain varieties. Explaining the how, and especially the time frame for these varieties to take root is harder to explain (for certain views in particular), considering all men come from one man--Adam.
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/5/2010 7:53:13 PM
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StephenJ
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What we call race is simply the result of adaptation to diffrent parts of the world. There shouldn't be "transitions" because we're all the same species.
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/5/2010 11:15:19 PM
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gralan
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some of the races are in Santa Barbara, and others are in Le Monque, and yet others are in the Yukon. It depends upon which races you are talking about.
Heck, my kid has engaged in races in our backyard.
What is the point of where races come from in a Christian forum? Its too broad a subject. Go to ESPN or something.
PS> I don't even need to have an explanation of what you are actually talking about. I know. There is only one human race.
And we are fallen. Even if we are saved by Jesus, it is by God's grace alone that we are. Praise his name and get back to doing your job in the body.
IMO only of course. Perhaps I'm wrong. If so, please email me at gcandj@gmail.com or send me a pm.
I'm available, when I'm not in the field helping widows and others. I've not much time to give to speculation, but I've got a few minutes each day - - actually I give up about an hour a day to it. I'm just a fellow sufferer in the Name of Christ Jesus, doing what is given me each day to do.
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/6/2010 1:08:33 PM
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GREATHIWAY
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"Let me clarify. There are distinct races: Chinese, Caucasian, African, etc. How come the "extreme" peculiarities. Looking back in history cultures kept within their own realms."
And As I said science and evolution do not support this concept of race. It is not even a well defined term. We have species, sub-species, varieties. And as far as I am aware no race ethnicity or culture going till as far as Neandertal fills any of these lables.
The Idea of there being distint races also breaks down when we look at native populations in america, or the people living in Eurasian countries for thousands of years like kazakhstan what race are they? Or how about Kennewick Man what race was he?
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/6/2010 3:45:31 PM
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gralan
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Let me clarify: There is
(1) the human race.
(2)
period.
There are some great responses here, and I'm glad to have read those.
quote:
ORIGINAL: GREATHIWAY
"Let me clarify. There are distinct races: Chinese, Caucasian, African, etc. How come the "extreme" peculiarities. Looking back in history cultures kept within their own realms."
And As I said science and evolution do not support this concept of race. It is not even a well defined term. We have species, sub-species, varieties. And as far as I am aware no race ethnicity or culture going till as far as Neandertal fills any of these lables.
The Idea of there being distint races also breaks down when we look at native populations in america, or the people living in Eurasian countries for thousands of years like kazakhstan what race are they? Or how about Kennewick Man what race was he?
Kennewick Man was part of the race to the first vacant tree clan. When family goes camping, we try to honor our great ancestors traditions.
< Message edited by gralan -- 3/6/2010 3:52:42 PM >
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The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/6/2010 4:02:07 PM
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drmark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
Anyone have a good answer as to how the different races of man came about. As creationists rightly ask, "Where are the transitional fossils/species (in magnitude especially)?"
The best answer is found in Genesis 10:1 - 11:9.
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/6/2010 6:24:25 PM
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shebamakeda
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
Anyone have a good answer as to how the different races of man came about. As creationists rightly ask, "Where are the transitional fossils/species (in magnitude especially)?"
Like other posters have said, there is no such a thing as different races. What you are referring to is various phenotypes. All of us possess the same genes. I am sure you know that melanin is what determines skin color. All humans have melanin except albinos. Africans and Indians just produce more melanin than Chinese and Europeans. If you look at areas where Africans and Europeans mixed a lot (the US, especially Brazil), you will find many people called Mulattoes. They have in between skin tones, hair texture, facial features. I have seen two Mulattoes produce a child that looks completely European. You can see for yourself using Google. In fact in Brazil, it is possible for children with the two same parents to be classified as completely different races. Using that example, it shouldn't be hard to see that Adam, Eve, Noah, and his sons,etc had a larger gene pool for phenotype and had the ability to create all the different skin tones and hair texture. Meaning they possessed the genes that coded for dark skin and light skin. The same is true for hair texture. Africans have very curly hair that is tight and dry which is on one extreme and then super straight hair which is oilier is on the other extreme. Once again, taking the examples of Mulattoes, you will notice that their hair is curly, but it is a looser and oilier curl than their Black parent, but still curlier and drier than their White parent. Same is true for eye color, nose shape, eye shape etc. So the founding human population probably appeared as what we would call "mixed" race. When humans migrated to other parts of the world, certain genes just were just isolated. If you remember from your biology class, you had the dominant and recessive genes lesson complete with a punnet square. Let us assume that big A represents lots of melanin and little a represents little melanin. Adam and Eve probably had AaAa as a combo. When people migrated to Africa, they got only big A's and Europeans got the small A's and Asians got both. But they are the SAME genes, just dominant and recessive genes. I hope this long explanation helps you!
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/6/2010 6:29:29 PM
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shebamakeda
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
Anyone have a good answer as to how the different races of man came about. As creationists rightly ask, "Where are the transitional fossils/species (in magnitude especially)?"
Oh I forget to mention how the human race exists on a continuum. If you go to North Europe, people tend to be very fair with fair eyes and fair hair. The farther south you get, the darker people get, but the populations flow into one another. If you go to South Europe into North Africa, the populations look similar. When you get farther into North Africa, the "Blacker" the people look. If you go to the border of Europe and Asia, some people have "Asian" eyes, but White skin and blonde hair. I think you get what I mean. If you line up every human based on skin tone for example and put the darkest human on one end and the lightest on the other, and then rank everyone in between from darkest to lightest, you will see that the human race just flows into one another and there are no borders or demarcated lines. It just shows we are all ONE and all related. Race is a man made concept!
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/7/2010 12:14:11 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
Well, I figured a macro evolutionist might say they were evolved that way according to their adaptation. Micro-evolutionist might say it is environment or extant genes.
There aren't two kinds of evolution. There is just biological evolution. The genes that are selected are the ones best adapted to the environment. The theory of biological evolution explains micro- and macro-evolution.
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/7/2010 1:26:22 PM
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gralan
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There is only biological evolution, and its within a species.
It is correct to state that there is no Macro evolution.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
Well, I figured a macro evolutionist might say they were evolved that way according to their adaptation. Micro-evolutionist might say it is environment or extant genes.
There aren't two kinds of evolution. There is just biological evolution. The genes that are selected are the ones best adapted to the environment. The theory of biological evolution explains micro- and macro-evolution.
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The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/7/2010 1:34:11 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
I don't think that the evolutionist or the creationist would have a different answer for this. Races come from variation in extant genes, i.e. regulatory processes. Overexpression of lip size, nose width, skin-melanin content, eye-socket fat, etc. In this regard, evolutionists and creationists have no reason to disagree. As for the history of mankind since Babel, those who accept the Bible's record of history might disagree with those who do not.
Well, I figured a macro evolutionist might say they were evolved that way according to their adaptation. Micro-evolutionist might say it is environment or extant genes. YEC may say its all supernatural or perhaps extant genes. OEC could be any of these depending on their stance.
Also, it depends on what you mean by accepting the Bible's record. I personally accept the record but I believe that the time frame of the early chapters of Genesis have a longer time frame than is generally accepted. For instance though the book of Genesis was edited by Moses, I believe there are 10 or more previous authors that Moses was quoting of the oral history when he say "these are the generations of (?)". So, this is the account of Shem, may mean there was a time in history that Shem lived in and perhaps was a leader. Perhaps the variety of skin color, etc. was already in place before the confusion of languages. I'm currently looking into this.
I do agree with the variety being extant genes, meaning God "preprogrammed" humans to have these certain varieties. Explaining the how, and especially the time frame for these varieties to take root is harder to explain (for certain views in particular), considering all men come from one man--Adam.
Even someone who believes that it's possible for genes to develop into new genes over time would have a hard time believing that the different skin colors are the result of such processes. It's much more reasonable to believe that a single gene, or perhaps a network of genes are being regulated to produce the various skin tones, as well as the other things that are typically used to identify a "race". Your analysis of selected categories is somewhat puzzling and doesn't reflect the status of the debate as I have observed it. YEC may say that it's all supernatural? God supernaturally confused the languages so maybe there is some supernaturalism to it, but your analysis seems to confuse the issue more than shed light.
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/7/2010 2:01:36 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
There is only biological evolution, and its within a species.
It is correct to state that there is no Macro evolution.
I know that creationists used to deny speciation. But, from what I've seen, many creationists no longer deny that speciation occurs. Answers in Genesis even has an article that states the creation model depends on speciation. Now many creationists claim that no new kinds develop. Of course, they never give a workable definition of kind.
There's just too much hard evidence of speciation to deny macro-evolution.
There is only biological evolution, and it explains micro- and macro-evolution.
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/7/2010 2:08:53 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
If you line up every human based on skin tone for example and put the darkest human on one end and the lightest on the other, and then rank everyone in between from darkest to lightest, you will see that the human race just flows into one another and there are no borders or demarcated lines. It just shows we are all ONE and all related. Race is a man made concept!
I think this is one of the best posts ever on the subject of race. 
I have no trouble beliving that a few progenitors produced the whole range of human features. Even within the microcosm of interracial families, it is possible to see drastic differences between the children of the same two parents. Sometimes, interracial kids are just an "even mix" of both parents, but other times you'll have children that look so different from one parent that people have a hard time believing they are biologically related. Add that tendency towards diversity to ancient human history where travel and mixing the gene pool up by intermarriage were difficult, and it's not a stretch to see how the various "races" became distinct in some places as the human population grew and spread out across the world and then settled into little enclaves. But as the previous poster pointed out, that distinction is a cultural construct, because in the locations between two "distinct races" are many people who have the features of both.
This conversation reminds me of photos I've seen of places like Khazakstan and Afghanistan. The people range from downright Asian-looking to red-headed Caucasian-looking.
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/8/2010 7:57:46 PM
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EaZiE
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Thanks shebamakeda. Excellent posts. It helps a lot to see the diversity that comes about through immediate progeny.
I wonder if there is an environmental influence of sorts in determining which characteristics the offspring will take. I believe this is known as epigenetics. PBS had a good show on it (google it) O.K., I won't wonder too much. Better get back to serving Jesus ;).
Actually, thanks for the answers. They are there if we are willing to ask.
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In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/9/2010 1:37:00 PM
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DaveW
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Define "race."
If you are talking about skin tone - there are 2 pairs of genes that cover it. If you are talking facial structures, there are other genes that carry those traits. This is all within the same genome - the same species. It has been shown that a group of people that ends up divided will over time develop differences based on environmental factors. It is why the people of German or English stock in the US look different than their counterparts (and in some cases distant relatives) in the "old country." If left to continue for a thousand years, they will develop very marked distinctions. (but all from the same original gene pool)
I will define "race" as a distinct set of skin tones and other body structures.
We are one species. We are not just one race.
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/10/2010 3:30:22 AM
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RSchorne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
Same thing for Africa, and the differences between the peoples there. East Africans are very distinctly different from Africans on the western coast of the continent.
Entirely true.
Someone from East African descent will never win the 100m dash at the Olympics, nor the world heavyweight championship in boxing.
West Africans (and their descendants in America and the West Indies) have the powerand fast twitch muscles to dominate these kinds of sports.
And West Africans and their descendants will never win the Olympic marathon.
East Africans have the slow twitch muscles and fine builds to dominate distance running.
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RE: Where the races come from? - 3/15/2010 3:23:35 PM
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Abbreviated
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There is only ONE race = the human one.
Then some of us have more or less pigmentation.
See the disease vitiligo to prove the point.
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