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bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 11/30/2008 8:33:37 PM
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thebigfishstory
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Ok, so here is the deal. There are SO many websites out there for guys that suggest that to attract the ladies, guys should basically be indifferent, confident and overtly sexual without begging for it. Basically, what is called the "bad boy" image. Most Christian guys are taught to be submissive, obedient, humble and quiet. So how are we supposed to make this thing work?
Many single (and even some married) Christian guys I know are basically "nice guys" - they are polite, dress nicely, speak kindly and have very good manners. They are clean cut guys. This really annoys me, because the motive seems to be "satisfy the female. do what is most appealing to her" - when, come on lets face it, most women want "bad guys" or at least want guys to be masculine and not someone like Richard Simmons or Mr. Rogers who are so in touch with their feelings. Occasionally, some guy with a "bad boy" image will come around and he is exciting to the women, but those kind of guys usually don't stay in church long, or are always finding other things to do other than church.
So, my basic question is really sort of complex. I know, as Christians, men are not supposed to be seductive and alluring women all the time. But, in my mind some of the things taught to men in the church (which is becoming more and more touchy feely and appealing to women) don't seem to line up with traditional "masculine" roles: think about this: David; the warrior, a man after God's own heart. Could we say he had a conquering spirit? Could we say that he loved women, and even strayed into deep sin over them? Yes to both, but he was a man after God's own heart, which to me says that men are supposed to be emotional toward God in prayer, passionate about the things that they do, even to a fault, and ready to admit when they need to go to God in prayer over a failure.
That being said, I am going to try to be more passionate and less needy of a guy in my personal life, because all the years of neediness have left me bitter and unfulfilled.
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 11/30/2008 8:41:15 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 2062
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quote:
ORIGINAL: thebigfishstory
Ok, so here is the deal. There are SO many websites out there for guys that suggest that to attract the ladies, guys should basically be indifferent, confident and overtly sexual without begging for it. Basically, what is called the "bad boy" image. Most Christian guys are taught to be submissive, obedient, humble and quiet. So how are we supposed to make this thing work?
I think putting it in these terms is where you run into problems. Are Christian guys taught to be submissive, obedient, and quiet? I hope not! But I know the type who seem to think that's what they should be - always creeped me out, frankly. Man up!
If guys in the world are trying to be all those other things, it's probably the world's twisted version of the confidence and leadership and strength that God intended them to have. Christian women don't want what you described - maybe that's the disconnect. These are certainly not the only two options. God calls men to know who they are in Christ, stand up for themselves, and be gentle and loving as Christ loves the Church...if you've been striving to be (or put forth an image of being) anything more or less than that, I can understand why you'd be bitter and unfulfilled.
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 11/30/2008 9:09:09 PM
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thebigfishstory
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Unfortunatly, I am afriad that attractive women, Christian or otherwise, do want exactly that. Now, I know that attrativeness is really a matter of preference, but the point is that women who feel confident in their looks, or at least in their ability to interest guys (that could be with looks, social position, fame, money, smarts, talent, power etc - whatever their "game" is) are turned ON by men who are indifferent with them and knock them off their pedastals a little bit, because lets face it, most guys are pawing at them trying to kiss their butts or impress them.
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 11/30/2008 9:23:17 PM
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delete123
Posts: 991
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I have to say seriously as I laughed at most of your post. You my friend are lying to yourself.
That is certainly not what most women look for.
The bad guy attitude is not a prime attractiveness and you are missing the point about King David.
King David was a warrior
Yet a child
Trusted wholeheartily on God
Repented when He realized was wrong
followed Him
Was Obedient to God
Trusted God
Lived for God
Dedicated his Child(ren) to God
What you missed is who David really was and please do not compare him to todays thugs. Thanx
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 11/30/2008 9:39:12 PM
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thebigfishstory
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I didn't call David a thug. The characteristics of David that you listed are correct, but a more "feminized" view, which again, is very typical of the modern American church. David was not a thug, but he also was a pursuer of women, he had several wives, and we simply can't overlook that. Bathsheba did not come to HIM, he called for her and yes, it was a sin, but Solomon, their son, built the temple of God, remember? So David was all the things in your list, yes, but I will add to that list that there is no indication that David was some kind of wallflower type of guy, like many Christian men are today, and I have been for years, but I am not going to be that way anymore. The current Christian culture promotes it, but I am rejecting it.
Men are supposed to chase girls, love their wives, and be passionate, but they are not supposed to be ruled over by women, so that means that men are in fact supposed to be "players" -
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 11/30/2008 9:58:13 PM
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narnia
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quote:
Unfortunatly, I am afriad that attractive women, Christian or otherwise, do want exactly that.
Wrong. Even before I was a Christian, I was never attracted to the bad boy image. Never understood what the big attraction was to that image. I always went for the clean cut, respectful ones-I married one too.
quote:
Men are supposed to chase girls, love their wives, and be passionate, but they are not supposed to be ruled over by women, so that means that men are in fact supposed to be "players" -
No married man is supposed to be chasing girls. In fact, Christian men, married or not , should not be chasing girls or being "players".
What does the Bible say about that:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Chasing girls and being a player is committing adultery. Not exactly being Christ-like, is it?
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 11/30/2008 11:15:38 PM
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csl7037
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I'm sorry, thebigfishstory, you are so confused. Do me a favor and pray about this long and hard (I'm thinking a year or more)...and don't talk to any women till you truly hear from God on what it means to be a Man of God - and then don't listen to anything or anyone else - Christian or secular. You've got some really wrong ideas about men, women, and society...and you're overthinking the wrong ideas to compound the problem.
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/1/2008 6:15:49 AM
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thebigfishstory
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Well, I wish it was that easy. You can't just stop the world and try to figure stuff out all the time. And, I don't see why I am so wrong in thinking what I think, besides, the poster above me made the comment (thank you) that being politically correct is un-male and wrong, so at least now I am beginning to feel more normal.
And another thing: how is the jamedean attitude and the Chrisitan attitude so incompatiple? Wasn't Jesus also a rebel??
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/1/2008 9:27:33 AM
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mrtigger
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quote:
ORIGINAL: thebigfishstory
That being said, I am going to try to be more passionate and less needy of a guy in my personal life, because all the years of neediness have left me bitter and unfulfilled.
I do think there is some truth to the idea that "bad boys" get more attention from the women. It's not universally true though. There are women who are looking for the "good guys". I understand your frustration but don't give up hope and don't try to be 'bad' to get the women. But don't be a wimpy 'nice guy' either. Just be yourself.
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/1/2008 2:05:56 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1942
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quote:
ORIGINAL: thebigfishstory
And another thing: how is the jamedean attitude and the Chrisitan attitude so incompatiple? Wasn't Jesus also a rebel??
Both were rebels, against different things (that don't look terribly different) but were FOR highly different things.
James Dean was against societal norms, and was for self-indulgence and selfishness in making his own rules ("I'm doing it my way") which is probably a form of idolatry.
Jesus was against man-religion idolatry and the "letter of the law" attitude that allowed self-indulgence, but for God, and His laws to live by in the spirit for God, and protected us from self-indulgence and making our own rules.
_____________________________
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/1/2008 10:39:50 PM
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LivingParadox
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Although I'm sure there are some females that like bad boys exclusively I'd beg to differ that's what most women want in a man. Bad boys generally are not scared to speak up and actually make a move towards a girl and unfortunately it usually later that a female finds out they are a proverbial bad boy.
At least for me and I'd estimate a good chunk of the female populatoin really wants a man of good character and integrity. Unfortunely it appears (at least in my age bracket) most are either bad boys or wussies -- the good ones are usually home with their wives.
My advice for you Big Fish, act in honesty, integrity and of good character but learn to speak up for yourself and you'd be surprised how good it feels not to mention how much more attractive.
_____________________________
Kites rise highest against the wind - not with it.
~Winston Churchill
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/2/2008 12:19:05 AM
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still4gvn
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I think women are attracted to 'alpha males' - guys who show strength, competancy and leadership. Satan has a knock-off conterfiet for a lot of good things. In this case, it's sometimes the guy who 'plays' aloof and seems bold in some areas.
A true Godly 'alpha male' guy will be leading people in a good direction. For instance, he will have a volunteer ministry and will stand up boldly for what is right. He will work hard to care for his family and give to those in need. He will be able to control his sexual passion and be faithfull when he marries. He will not be intimidated by folks laughing at his faith or trying to pull him into sin. He will speak truth in relationships and not 'play games' to impress people.
How do I know? I married a guy like that.
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/2/2008 1:24:03 AM
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jesuschick247
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrtigger
quote:
ORIGINAL: thebigfishstory
That being said, I am going to try to be more passionate and less needy of a guy in my personal life, because all the years of neediness have left me bitter and unfulfilled.
I do think there is some truth to the idea that "bad boys" get more attention from the women. It's not universally true though. There are women who are looking for the "good guys". I understand your frustration but don't give up hope and don't try to be 'bad' to get the women. But don't be a wimpy 'nice guy' either. Just be yourself.
Great post, Mr. Tigger! Especially the last part!
I would be one of those women who wants a good guy, just not a wimpy guy! He has to be a Godly leader to catch my eye in the first place! I personally don't care for bad boys, they tend to be self-centered and I don't like that type of personality very well.
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"Always be a first-rate version of yourself, rather than a second-rate version of someone else." - Judy Garland
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/2/2008 1:40:03 AM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: still4gvn
A true Godly 'alpha male' guy will be leading people in a good direction. For instance, he will have a volunteer ministry and will stand up boldly for what is right. He will work hard to care for his family and give to those in need. He will be able to control his sexual passion and be faithfull when he marries. He will not be intimidated by folks laughing at his faith or trying to pull him into sin. He will speak truth in relationships and not 'play games' to impress people.
How do I know? I married a guy like that.
Sounds like a wonderful guy who's got what it takes! May their tribes increase.
I married a guy like that, too, and it's hard not to brag on him. He's wonderful. I am so blessed!
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Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/2/2008 11:31:56 AM
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jaimestarcross
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Attractive features in a male should be he's submissive to God first and foremost, obedient to the Word and to his commitments/responsibilities,
humble enough to accept godly correction - and he's not so arrogant that he won't take into consideration a woman's ideas or point of view or show her respect/love.
Quiet that he listens for the voice of the Lord - quiet, not
loud, nor easily angered or boastful of his own successes.
*There's nothing wrong with guys who aren't the clean cut, well dressed type with good manners... just as long as they know Christ as Savior and have(or striving to have) those qualities I listed above!
As many of us know Christ was born a Nazarene... so he didn't shave or cut his hair, and according to various places in the Bible his manners weren't always good and nor was he well dressed!
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/2/2008 2:29:48 PM
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benelchi
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: thebigfishstory
come on lets face it, most women want "bad guys"
While I think you have identified the symptom of a problem in our churches, you have looked in the wrong direction for the cause. While I do believe it is true to a limited extent that the church has failed teach a proper perspective of masculinity, I don't believe this is the primary source for the problem you describe. The problem you describe is the result of a church that has failed to teach the importance for men and women to live righteously. I think a good perspective of what "should be" was echoed in jaimestarcross' post.
quote:
Attractive features in a male should be he's submissive to God first and foremost, obedient to the Word and to his commitments/responsibilities,
humble enough to accept godly correction - and he's not so arrogant that he won't take into consideration a woman's ideas or point of view or show her respect/love.
Quiet that he listens for the voice of the Lord - quiet, not
loud, nor easily angered or boastful of his own successes.
The fact that most Christian woman are often attracted to "bad boys" is something that should NOT compel Christian men to become "bad boys", it should compel the church to spend more time teaching women about what true biblical masculinity is all about and how their decisions in dating reflect what they truly value. In the same way, the fact that most Christian men choose to date woman based on very worldly values should not encourage godly women to abandon their godly standards to meet the standards sought after by ungodly men, it should compel the church to spend more time teaching men about what true biblical femininity is all about and how their decisions in dating reflect what they truly value.
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/2/2008 2:35:46 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1942
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: thebigfishstory
come on lets face it, most women want "bad guys"
While I think you have identified the symptom of a problem in our churches, you have looked in the wrong direction for the cause. While I do believe it is true to a limited extent that the church has failed teach a proper perspective of masculinity, I don't believe this is the primary source for the problem you describe. The problem you describe is the result of a church that has failed to teach the importance for men and women to live righteously. I think a good perspective of what "should be" was echoed in jaimestarcross' post.
quote:
Attractive features in a male should be he's submissive to God first and foremost, obedient to the Word and to his commitments/responsibilities,
humble enough to accept godly correction - and he's not so arrogant that he won't take into consideration a woman's ideas or point of view or show her respect/love.
Quiet that he listens for the voice of the Lord - quiet, not
loud, nor easily angered or boastful of his own successes.
The fact that most Christian woman are often attracted to "bad boys" is something that should NOT compel Christian men to become "bad boys", it should compel the church to spend more time teaching women about what true biblical masculinity is all about and how their decisions in dating reflect what they truly value. In the same way, the fact that most Christian men choose to date woman based on very worldly values should not encourage godly women to abandon their godly standards to meet the standards sought after by ungodly men, it should compel the church to spend more time teaching men about what true biblical femininity is all about and how their decisions in dating reflect what they truly value.
Halleluia! Right on, Benelchi!
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Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/6/2008 10:17:01 AM
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Trusting.in.Him
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Here's what doesn't make sense...why are the self-controlled, obedient, humble guys often made to look like the weak little weenies?
The truly weak men are the ones who make no move to control their passions, the ones who chase after their sexual desires without restraint and are puppeted by their pride and selfish ambition. He is unwilling to do anything other than what his lusts demand of him. You date/marry a guy like that, that's what you're gonna get from him in your relationship.
A Godly guy is going to be practiced in restraint. Someone who is disciplined and considerate of what GOD would have him to do. That's DOESN'T mean that he forsakes his manly instincts, but rather that he channel them in such a way that God is pleased. Christian men are called to be God's servants, and we women should refuse to settle for anything less!
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/6/2008 11:02:51 AM
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LivingParadox
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I think maybe the title of this thread is probably a good indicator of what's missing "bad BOYS" vs "good BOYS". Maybe it's really boy versus man portion that is missing. Godly strength is a very attactive quality and very much part of being a "man". Strength alone is probably is what bad boys give off and a fake version of the godly kind.
_____________________________
Kites rise highest against the wind - not with it.
~Winston Churchill
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/6/2008 11:21:15 AM
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agapetos
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quote:
come on lets face it, most women want "bad guys" or at least want guys to be masculine and not someone like Richard Simmons or Mr. Rogers who are so in touch with their feelings. Here's some ground-breaking news... you can be masculine and still be in touch with your feelings. It's ok for men to cry ~ just as it's ok for women to cry ~ but the situation has to be appropriate (for both). I was at work one day, years back and we received some very bad news (a colleague had been killed). The store manager and one of the duty managers (both men) cried (as I did). None of us cried on the shop floor though, it was done behind the scenes.
quote:
indifferent, confident and overtly sexual without begging for it. Basically, what is called the "bad boy" image. You don't have to be indifferent or overtly sexual. You can be yourself. I left confident out, becaue I think that when someone is confident, without being arrogant, they become attractive.
quote:
Most Christian guys are taught to be submissive, obedient, humble and quiet. Are they? I've obviously met the wrong guys then (whether married or not). I know some men who fit into one or two of these categories, but not all. They fit, because that's the kind of people they are naturally, not because it's what they've been taught.
I suggest you learn to be yourself (within Christ) instead of trying to fit into what someone else says is how a Christian man should behave ~ which is something we should all be doing whether a man or woman.
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I could give up chocolate ~ but I'm no quitter!
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/8/2008 8:19:58 AM
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buckifn
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maybe they could just do what I did- get so good at being bad that everyone loves you anyhow. 
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RE: bad boy vs. good boy (the eternal debate...) - 12/8/2008 9:23:24 AM
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DaveW
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To say that women are attracted by "bad boy" or "good boy" attitudes, or "alpha males" or "submissive to God" types are attractive to women fails to take one thing into consideration: Women are not monolithic. What appeals to one person may be disgusting to the next.
My advice: be yourself in HIM. That will be attractive to someone, possibly the RIGHT someone. Don't get caught into the trap of trying to become something you are not in order to attract a spouse. When that effort fails and you revert to yourself, you could be (rightly) accused of false advertising.
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He will learn that once he is taken and married that God made Adam first the prototype and excelled with us women trying to teach these men something! 
(Does that date me or what? Now he doesn't have any hair!)
