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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 12/5/2009 11:33:19 PM
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Anst
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quote:
I kind of get what both sidees are talking about? I have question for both. How does one masturbate & not fantasize? What do you do to just enjoy it and not let your mind wander? And to the other side. Do you you think you will NEVER masturbate ever again? Really? Or is it that most guys just feel the need to cut it down?
In my experience, being single and a virgin, I can only say that since I have not had sex then I cannot really masturbate with a specific experience or memory in mind i.e. I mean I have no tangible experience that equates to the sexual experience with the opposite sex if that makes sense. I could fantasize about having sex with a girl while masturbating, but in my opinion it would be unrealistic since I don't know what sex is really like with the opposite sex. Hence, my focus when I've masturbated in the past was the physical sensations and release--that's all I had in mind, i.e. how good it feels--not a sexy pin up etc.
And regarding never masturbating again I recall as a naive teenager hearing one guy's discussion about sex with a group of co-workers and he said that sex is like a door that when you've opened it, it's very hard to close again--and in my own experience I can say that in all honesty that his observations are true. And this is where I guess you can only equate or liken Paul's affliction (2 Corinthians 12) with our own challenges and struggles with masturbation and sex. For some it might be easier and for others it might be tougher, but we all need to reach a point of acceptance where we can honestly own up to our failings whatever they might be and perhaps then we'll be more able to cope with them, learn from them and grow in the grace of Christ.
_____________________________
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them"--Isaiah 8:20
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 12/26/2009 11:07:12 AM
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SUBSONIC
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As a new member I really enjoyed reading some posts on this topic. I have been a christian for 27 years now, I believe when it comes to this topic, you really have to pay attention to the Holy spirit. I equate masturbation to drinking, rock music, gambling. Although not mentioned in the Bible, used in the wrong way, could be bad. Just like drinking, which I do, where does it become a problem. I truly believe the Holy spirit will let you know that limit. For the guys that do it, do not kill your self with guilt, but listen to how you feel. As a final note, to those that condem certain practices, like drinking, or whatever, please provide a scripture to back it up, otherwise it is just another view point.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 1/4/2010 8:39:00 AM
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Mitteemo48
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I don't like to talk about it but I have masterbated off and on all my life. I have had mixed feelings about it. To some even sex in marriage is sin, which is definitely not a Christian idea. It falls into the category of doctrines of devils that have creeped into the church from those not fully informed on God's Word or filled with the Holy Spirit. This is like the forbidding to marry and eating of meat mentioned by the apostle Paul. I Cor 4:1-3 It seems I need some sexual release on occasion. I was raised on a farm and saw a young bull masterbate without hands. He arched his back and actually ejaculate by moving his body muscles. That told me that masterbation is a natural body function, not something dirty or unplanned by God. That removes it from the area of sinful activity for me, expecially since it is not clearly forbidden in the Bible. Jesus railed against the Pharisees who created a whole list of 'sins' which God did not list in the law of Moses. Some Christians include things they don't like as forbidden actions by others. Paul dealt with that attitude in Romans 14. Lev 15 deals with this, but we are not under the law of Moses, but under the new covenant by faith in Christ. He can and does deal with forgiveness by grace. Paul had some of the same problems but covered them well in Romans 7. We need to look there and decide what we can allow for ourselves and others without creating a discord with others who are as Christian as we claim to be. I do know both men and women struggle with this fact of life. I do not take the Catholic position that tradition is equal with the Bible on such issues. Paul was more open on judging ourselves, but not applying the same strict measures to others. My wife and I are married for 37 years and we have no problem between us over this or any other sexual issue. We are committed to each other in the bonds of marriage and also in the fellowship of Jesus Christ. We have a perfect marriage because it is Christ centered, not me centered. God's Word and the Holy Spirit in us is sufficient for all things.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 3:55:00 PM
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tropicalheadline
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New member here-this has been an issue for a while. Its just one of those things that there is no real victory over unless God gives you tons of willp[ower. Not everybody gets that...
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 1/28/2010 12:51:58 PM
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DaveW
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Welcome Tropical!
I am not sure that God wants us to have that kind of will-power.
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Avatar is my son Caleb and Leah on their wedding 12/20/09
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Winner of 2010 "best in "He Says"
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/9/2010 10:32:04 PM
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walterquez
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Actually, you don't need a huge amount of will power. Just don't do it, it is that simple.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/12/2010 7:06:40 PM
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walterquez
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You mean older folks need more will power?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2010 6:43:23 PM
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yeahright353
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ok, i am finally getting involved in a ministry , start on friday, by God's grace i have been free from porn for a little while, and from M also, i ask for your prayers that i learn to finally depend on God. not myself. and i ask you pray that God give me wisdom to depend on hom to give me words for the people i minister to. thanks my brothers
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 2/26/2010 2:46:04 PM
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yeahright353
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i am involved with a door to door ministry, evangelizing, also when weather doesn't permit i will be driving a cab, so i will be very exposed, i have driven a cab before and i have seen people come to christ like that, also i have done door to door before and i have also seen people become christians by the grace of God. i have had problems with porn and M for some time, but i have been able to deal with it because i use visualization to combat the temptation, letme explain, i usually feels this when i am in bed, tired or whatever. i then think , visualizing Jesus becoming part of me, like he gives me a part of him in my hand to attach it to myself, sometimes i have to cry out Jesus name when i get attcked like i did the other night, i had like 3 straight sexual dreams, and it was like i was drowning in temptation, my got all excited and my mind was racing. i have gotten in the habit also of reading the bible and praying when i do get up. so far God as been Good and has given me ways to escape the temptation. when i get my internet connection together i will become a mentor at www.settingcaptivesfree.com God willing, i used to be a mentor there and i think it's good to go back and get more victories, if i can keep free i will reveal my name and number here, i thinks it's important to have people praying for me by name here and other blogs. i just haven't had the freedom or victory i need, or i just frightened of the idea of falling and looking like a chump! whatever i have been fighting this for some time and it looks like i am turning the corner by the grace of God. feel free to email me about anything else ok
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/3/2010 7:17:23 AM
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serenitynow123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Samurai - you have hit on an important point. In biblical times (at least NT times as we have many written documents from that period) it was common to get married at about 13 or 14. Marriages were arranged by the parents and after reaching the age of bar mitvah (12 1/2) the young man would get bethrothed and start making a home for his bride and future family. THat took about a year.
According to the Mishnah - the earliest written down version of the Jewish oral tradition, marriage was binding if both parties had reached the age of 9 years plus one day and they had sex.
Since marriage and sex came that early ( and puberty was somewhat later then) M was not the issue it is now, and there was not the years (or decades) of physical frustration typical of this day and age.
Since there is no direct biblical prohibition against M (and there is no lack of details in the Bible of even rare prohibited sexual practices) I believe the silence is there so that while not prefered, it allows for M as a valid form of relief for the frustrated.
Good point Dave, even in my parents generation, people married in their early 20's and late teens (right out of Highschool) so they could hold off on that kind of thing until they got married.
I was hoping I WOULD be married by my mid 20's however, since that never happened, "M" would be an issue if marriage not even be on the horizon. What if I never get married? LOL
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2010 10:34:43 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Actually, you don't need a huge amount of will power. Just don't do it, it is that simple. At one point (1 Cor 7) Paul describes unfulfilled sexual desire as "burning." How much will power does it take to not try and put out the flames if some part of your body is on fire? "Just don't do it???"
_____________________________
Avatar is my son Caleb and Leah on their wedding 12/20/09
=======================
Winner of 2010 "best in "He Says"
=======================
Our CD is available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2010 10:38:02 AM
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serenitynow123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Actually, you don't need a huge amount of will power. Just don't do it, it is that simple.
Um, no it isn't....easier said than done...thus the whole purpose of this one-stop thread. ;-)
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2010 4:08:14 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
At one point (1 Cor 7) Paul describes unfulfilled sexual desire as "burning." How much will power does it take to not try and put out the flames if some part of your body is on fire? "Just don't do it???" quote:
ORIGINAL: serenitynow123
Um, no it isn't....easier said than done...thus the whole purpose of this one-stop thread. ;-)
If you're addicted to it, I can see how hard it will be; but regardless, like any addiction, you can be overcome it. And like anything else, if you're not addicted, you don't need much of a will power to say no; you just don't do it. I don't have to work hard at avoiding cocaine, or gambling, or masturbation, or pornography. This doesn't mean I am better than those who do them, I am not; it just means that if a lowly person like me can do it, how much more a person like you can.
P.S.
Dave, the Apostle Paul's solution was obviously not masturbation, but marriage, if I remember correctly.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 7:34:46 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Dave, the Apostle Paul's solution was obviously not masturbation, but marriage, if I remember correctly. Correct. But what if the guy that is burning is only 15 years old? Marriage is off the table for probably another decade.
_____________________________
Avatar is my son Caleb and Leah on their wedding 12/20/09
=======================
Winner of 2010 "best in "He Says"
=======================
Our CD is available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 9:35:30 AM
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DNP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
If you're addicted to it, I can see how hard it will be; but regardless, like any addiction, you can be overcome it. And like anything else, if you're not addicted, you don't need much of a will power to say no; you just don't do it. I don't have to work hard at avoiding cocaine, or gambling, or masturbation, or pornography. This doesn't mean I am better than those who do them, I am not; it just means that if a lowly person like me can do it, how much more a person like you can.
P.S.
Dave, the Apostle Paul's solution was obviously not masturbation, but marriage, if I remember correctly.
Walterquez, in United States the age of puberty has dropped so that for many it is around 12 years old. I have a few questions for you.
A) What happens between age 12 and marriage?
B) Since Apostle Paul's solution to sexual urges and desires was marriage do think we should go back to marrying at the start of puberty, like in Biblical days?
C) If you believe people in their early teens should not be married what do you believe should be done to stop them from having "inappropriate" and unfulfillable sexual feelings/urges/desires?
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 7:09:55 PM
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walterquez
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One of the reasons people have problem with it is because of obesity. There is a reason why in the Orthodox Church we fast twice a week, and twice a year we fast for 40 days; currently, we are fasting for 40 days before Pascha. This is because overeating increases our desires, and controlling what we eat, by not eating more than we need to, reduces it.
If the age of puberty in the US has dropped, it is not surprising. We are the fattest nation, and consequently, are susceptible to many kinds of sexual desires.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 7:17:48 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveWquote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Dave, the Apostle Paul's solution was obviously not masturbation, but marriage, if I remember correctly. Correct. But what if the guy that is burning is only 15 years old? Marriage is off the table for probably another decade. What does the Holy Scripture say?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2010 11:55:38 PM
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DNP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
One of the reasons people have problem with it is because of obesity. There is a reason why in the Orthodox Church we fast twice a week, and twice a year we fast for 40 days; currently, we are fasting for 40 days before Pascha. This is because overeating increases our desires, and controlling what we eat, by not eating more than we need to, reduces it.
Is the birthrate in your denomination significantly lower than in others? When I was in college I knew some female long distance runners who's body fat percentage was so low that they even stopped menstruating. They were in excellent shape.
quote:
If the age of puberty in the US has dropped, it is not surprising. We are the fattest nation, and consequently, are susceptible to many kinds of sexual desires.
Per population United States is not the "fattest nation" nation is the world. It is more like #9. http://www.healthkicker.com/705819375/most-overweight-and-healthiest-nation-in-the-world/
Within the last 100 years the age of puberty has decreased for many reasons. Even if one factors out obesity it was going down. Even if it wasn't and the age of puberty was 15 instead of 12. The three year "reprieve" seems problematic. That still creates a gap between puberty (15) and the age of marriage (26) that maybe over a decade with a person that maybe at their hormonal peak.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/10/2010 6:55:33 PM
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walterquez
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The "total" population of the top eight looks like it is less than 4 million; about the size of Connecticut; that is very small.
Regardless, obesity plays a major role, not just with growth and health issues, but also with masturbation. People through out the centuries have eating certain kinds of food in order to increase their libido. People who eat a large meal before going to sleep many times have dreams about sex, or sometimes just plain weird dreams. This is why many ask, what did you eat last night that you had that dream. Food affects our mood, and too much of it can wreak havoc. Our body begins to want things more and more than before, making it almost extremely hard for us to say "no."
I am not saying that eating healthy and eating no more than you are suppose to each day will magically solve the problem, but it will definitely give you a new strength you did not have before to simply say "no", and not do it.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/10/2010 11:25:13 PM
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DNP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
The "total" population of the top eight looks like it is less than 4 million; about the size of Connecticut; that is very small.
The total population is far less important than the percentage of population when comparing countries. Otherwise one could not directly compare China to the Cook Islands, for example. I care more about relative humidity than absolute humidity because I know the air at 80 degrees Fahrenheit can hold five times the moisture than the air at 20 degrees. The interesting thing to note is that many countries don’t report statistics as much as the United States does. So the sample taken in portion to the population frequently is too low. I suspect world obesity maybe much greater than what is reported.
quote:
Regardless, obesity plays a major role, not just with growth and health issues, but also with masturbation. People through out the centuries have eating certain kinds of food in order to increase their libido. People who eat a large meal before going to sleep many times have dreams about sex, or sometimes just plain weird dreams. This is why many ask, what did you eat last night that you had that dream. Food affects our mood, and too much of it can wreak havoc. Our body begins to want things more and more than before, making it almost extremely hard for us to say "no."
Yes, food and dreams are related. Most of the foods that people claim are aphrodisiacs have not tended to pass scientific scrutiny. BTW having dreams about sex is actually very normal once puberty hits in both men and women. Nocturnal Emissions are also natural although not necessarily desirable. The human body by its nature is supposed to release its reproductive cells. That is why men make so many sperm cells a day and why women ovulate. Just as it is designed to cough, sneeze or remove its waste.
quote:
I am not saying that eating healthy and eating no more than you are suppose to each day will magically solve the problem, but it will definitely give you a new strength you did not have before to simply say "no", and not do it.
In many countries where much of the population starves the birthrate is very high. Even if you factored out birth control the lack of food should cut libido down a lot. We also have to remember libido tends to increase with exercise. In men aerobic and anaerobic exercise actually makes testosterone levels increase. Both forms of exercises are performed by young men in schools and university. Which means staying in shape can boost sexual desire in single men. Testosterone levels tend to be the highest in the teens and early 20’s. Hormonal levels actually surge in men before they wake up and during puberty they can fluctuate wildly within a 24-hour period. Literally millions of sex cells are produced each day. This suggests the “problem” is mostly one of human biology.
Currently there is no “magic switch” that keeps testosterone levels low and stops the production of sperm/semen in single young men. Through my work with pharmaceutical companies over the years I know that certain widely prescribed drugs such as Prozac and Paxil greatly reduce or eliminate sexual drive and sexual function in many adolescents and men. Many men in the United States are currently prescribed this class (SSRI) of antidepressant already and have reported such affects. In the future, maybe drugs that are specifically designed from the beginning to reduce libido in lonely people will be produced. Just like their stronger cousins that are given to sex offenders.
The other things some single brothers do is simply deny their sexual feelings altogether. It is not impossible to do. As time goes on it becomes much easier to do. I know many Christian men who never ask women out on dates. Everyone thinks these men are just afraid of rejection. Sure some are but many of them are so skilled at denying sexual feelings that they are not interested in asking a women out. They see the total conquering of sexual feelings as a spiritual strength. Some will even look away from attractive women. I visited one church where the brothers would avoid looking at or being around women in swimwear at the beach. None and I repeat, none of these brothers would ever hang around women alone because they were told about the dangers of temptation. None of them asked women out. None of them had computers for fear of porn. If they thought a sister showed any interest in them or became “flirty” they would not make sure to not send “the wrong singles” to them. All believed masturbation was a sin but none of them ever showed me a scripture that proved it.
Through performing counseling in the United States I found that many, not all, but a growing minority of young single men who are believers over the past 15 years have kissed dating, courtship and any feeling they believe is sexual based (attraction) goodbye. Still, most leaders just keep talking about “fear of rejection”, “extended adolescence” and how “real men should pursue women and take risks”. While at the same time they preach that sexual desire/attraction in single men is evil and that desire/temptation/lust is lurking around every corner.
That is analogous to telling a group of men they must man-up and try crack cocaine responsibly when they become adults because it give the best feeling in the world. Then telling them it is dangerous and can ruin their lives and souls so they must smoke it with a chaperon under the scrutiny of a leader. Most men will just avoid it altogether. You can't put something down 99% of the time and say it is good the remaining 1% without causing an overall negative feeling about it. .
And no, I am not advocating fornication, adultery or any activity the Bible says is a sin. I am just saying Christian men should not feel like they should be asexual eunuchs.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/10/2010 11:37:27 PM
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DNP
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Here is a quote from my favorite website Crosswalk I have used before;
http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=1183
“Why Christian Men Aren’t Dating
From Crosswalk.
know that many Christian singles were hugely impacted by Joshua Harris’ best-selling book I Kissed Dating Goodbye, in which he recommends interacting with the opposite sex in groups until you find “the one” and are ready for courtship – intentional dating with an eye toward marriage.
But it seems unlikely that this mindset accounts for the overwhelming lack of dating among Christians, because so many Christian singles don’t espouse Harris’ viewpoint. Again, casual conversations (in this case, with men) shed light on the subject. Wanting to get to the core of the issue, I asked a few guys in my own singles Bible study what was up.
“I can tell you what it is,” said one male friend emphatically. “They’re scared. Period. Christian guys are scared to get involved with girls because they hear in church about the dangers of getting too close to someone [physically]. Once they’re attracted, it’s a slippery slope.”
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Here is a quote from about Denial of Sexual Feelings by two Christian Therapists which I have also referenced in a recent thread:
http://vantagepoint.com.sg/2009/09/single-sexual-and-sanctified/#respond
Choice 1: Deny your sexual feelings
It is not uncommon for the young person who has either been raised in an emotionally/sexually unexpressive home to be unaware of sexual feelings. The single person who is intensely sexual may shut off those feelings because their power is frightening. Such a person may behave and feel as if he or she had no sexual feelings. This choice is understandable, but its detrimental consequences far outweigh its benefits.
We have worked with these consequences in young married couples who have no desire for one another. Sometimes one or both spouses report that they chose the route of denying their sexual feelings, believing this is what God wanted them to do before they were married. They had not separated their actions from their feelings. To be able to remain virgins, they had chosen to be asexual, only to discover, as they moved into marriage, that they continued to be asexual. The pain and the sense of being shortchanged are very powerful for these people because they had operated on the belief that if they did not let themselves be sexual before marriage, God would bless them with a free and abundant sexual life after marriage.
Sexuality does not work this way. It is an innate appetite, just like hunger. People can control how much they eat, just as they can control their sexual behavior. But when they shut down their appetites for food they become anorexic; likewise, if they turn off their sexual feelings, they become sexually apathetic. And this apathy sometimes continues beyond the point when they say “I do.”
If you read the whole linked article you will realize that the authors believe fornication is a sin. They are showing what complete denial can do.
I await responses your responses because this does all tie in to the main subject of this thread and the morality of masturbation.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 12:16:41 AM
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DNP
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I believe obesity is a major factor in early puberty but not necessarily the only factor. Look at this excerpt from the link below.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/earlier-girls-puberty1.htm
“As to the reason why puberty appears to be coming earlier and earlier for young girls, researchers have several theories. Some have suggested that exposure to chemicals, including polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs, which were once used as coolants and flame retardants) and phthalates (which are added to plastics to make them more flexible), may be partly to blame because these chemicals break down into substances that are similar to the hormone estrogen.
One study that followed 600 pregnant women and their children found that girls who were exposed to high levels of PCBs in the womb started puberty sooner than girls who didn't have such exposure. Researchers have also been curious about the rash of early puberty cases that hit Puerto Rico in the 1980s and '90s. Girls there started growing breasts as young as age 2. Researchers discovered that many of the Puerto Rican girls had high levels of phthalates in their bloodstream. A lot of the girls had also been fed soy formula as babies. Soy contains natural plant compounds called isoflavones, which can act like estrogen in the body [source: Lemorick].
In the 1990s, suspicion turned to hormones in milk and meat -- especially artificial bovine growth hormone. However, researchers say this hormone isn't a steroid like estrogen, and it's destroyed too quickly during digestion to have any real effect on the human reproductive system.”
I found that story to be very disturbing!
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2010 1:22:36 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dnp200450
The total population is far less important than the percentage of population when comparing countries. Otherwise one could not directly compare China to the Cook Islands, for example. You're right, and you should "not" compare China to the Cook Islands. Just because 99.99999 percent of the Cook Islands goes to the beach, doesn't meant 99.99999 of China do the same.
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In many countries where much of the population starves the birthrate is very high. What does this have to do with the topic?
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The other things some single brothers do is simply deny their sexual feelings altogether. It is not impossible to do. Not sure it is a denying, but simply not acting out on our emotions. For example, like not hitting someone because you're angry.
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I visited one church where the brothers would avoid looking at or being around women in swimwear at the beach. None and I repeat, none of these brothers would ever hang around women alone because they were told about the dangers of temptation. None of them asked women out. None of them had computers for fear of porn. If they thought a sister showed any interest in them or became “flirty” they would not make sure to not send “the wrong singles” to them. All believed masturbation was a sin but none of them ever showed me a scripture that proved it. Sounds extreme, and also doing it out of fear. Not necessarily bad to stay away from bad things, but it should not be the focus of our lives.
What, none of them showed you scripture? Try this one:quote:
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor masturbators, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Pretty strong statement, they will "not" inherit the kingdom of God. Lord have mercy.
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St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 3/13/2010 1:35:39 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1843
Joined: 4/12/2005
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ORIGINAL: dnp200450
I believe obesity is a major factor in early puberty but not necessarily the only factor. Look at this excerpt from the link below.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/earlier-girls-puberty1.htm
I found that story to be very disturbing! Only to stress the point even further, that it is "not" normal. If we all live a life as God intended for us to live, we will not have these strong sexual desires, much less have these controversial conversations about masturbation, because no one would be doing it in the first place.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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