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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 5:15:35 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I did in my first post - "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" Verse 17 says these were "a shadow of things to come". We differ, obviously, because for some reason you think this applies to pagans. Were pagans in the Colossian church?
This need not be interpreted as let no man judge you when you don't pay attention to the Scriptural commands regarding . . ., because these are only shadows . . .
It can be interpreted as let no man judge you regarding these things you are already doing, for those who do not do these things and those who would add additional requirements are not recognizing them as shadows of what has come. It is important that a shadow is not as important than the real thing. However, this does not mean that the shadow disappears when the actual is here, or after it has passed.
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Disciples of whom?
That would be the members of the church at Ephesus.
Why would the Colossians be disciples of the Ephesians. Even if that is the case, aren't we all disciples of the Messiah? Therefore, should we not follow His example?
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Also, what is "the Lord's Table"? Did this not occur at Passover? Yep, and afterwards it was kept on the Sunday Sabbath.
Why would one do that, since as I have pointed out a ressurection on the first day of the week does not meet the three days and three nights timeline? Also, I know of nowhere in the Scriptures where it says we should commemorate the day of the week on which the ressurection took place.
A couple of other things that you have not yet addressed: What is Paul refering to when he talks of "the dominion of darkness" and "evil behavior"? Do these refer to "ceremonial rituals" of the "Hebrew Christians"? This is important because it is the preamble to the passage you refer to.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 3:35:52 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I did in my first post - "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" Verse 17 says these were "a shadow of things to come". We differ, obviously, because for some reason you think this applies to pagans. Were pagans in the Colossian church?
This need not be interpreted as let no man judge you when you don't pay attention to the Scriptural commands regarding . . ., because these are only shadows . . . It can be interpreted as let no man judge you regarding these things you are already doing, for those who do not do these things and those who would add additional requirements are not recognizing them as shadows of what has come. It doesn't appear that these were standard practices in the Colossian church. Although, for Paul to be writing about this obviously there was some dissention or confusion. Who else but the Jewish Christians would be advocating keeping the ceremonial laws?
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It is important that a shadow is not as important than the real thing. However, this does not mean that the shadow disappears when the actual is here, or after it has passed. I disagree, the shadow has no substance - only the "real thing" is substantive and efficacious. The OT ceremonial shadows no longer exist for the Christian other than to study and reflect upon what they foreshadowed and the spiritual information concerning salvation found in them.
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Disciples of whom?
That would be the members of the church at Ephesus. Why would the Colossians be disciples of the Ephesians. We were discussing Acts 20:1 here - not Colossians.
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Even if that is the case, aren't we all disciples of the Messiah? Therefore, should we not follow His example? What does that have to do with Paul calling his disciples together? "And after the uproar was ceased, Paul called unto him the disciples, and embraced them, and departed for to go into Macedonia."
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Yep, and afterwards it was kept on the Sunday Sabbath.
Why would one do that, since as I have pointed out a ressurection on the first day of the week does not meet the three days and three nights timeline? I don't know what you pointed out but a Sunday resurrection is in keeping with Scripture. The Lord's suffering began in Gethsemane on Thursday night and the atonement experience was completed when He resurrected early Sunday morning. Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night equals three nights. All day Friday, all day Saturday and a partial day Sunday, which is counted as a day, equals three days. So, three days and three nights are involved with the atonement.
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Also, I know of nowhere in the Scriptures where it says we should commemorate the day of the week on which the ressurection took place. To learn scriptural truth we must harmonize all pertinent references to the topic at hand. And when we do, we learn Sunday is the NT Sabbath.
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A couple of other things that you have not yet addressed: What is Paul refering to when he talks of "the dominion of darkness" and "evil behavior"? Do these refer to "ceremonial rituals" of the "Hebrew Christians"? This is important because it is the preamble to the passage you refer to.
Paul is very clear what he means by these phrases. It is the "dominion of darkness" from which Christ has redeemed us. And we all were enemies of God performing "evil behavior" prior to salvation.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:...
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 4:43:34 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
It doesn't appear that these were standard practices in the Colossian church. Although, for Paul to be writing about this obviously there was some dissention or confusion. Who else but the Jewish Christians would be advocating keeping the ceremonial laws?
One could make the point that idolatry and debauchary were probably more common practices among those who lived in Colossi. However, I would presume Epaphras, Paul and Timothy taught them to observe other practices and that is what He appears to be doing in His letter. Though some may have been insisting that they follow extra biblical rabbinics, I have no doubt they also received much pressure from those who wished them to return to the power of darkness and wicked works that he mentioned in chapter 1. At the end of your last post you appear to have indicated that you do agree Paul is talking about greco/roman practices when He used these termsin chapter 1.
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The OT ceremonial shadows no longer exist for the Christian other than to study and reflect upon what they foreshadowed and the spiritual information concerning salvation found in them.
How better to reflect on them than to use them as reminders of the spiritual information concerning salvation found in them as the Scriptures encourage us to do?
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Disciples of whom?
That would be the members of the church at Ephesus. Why would the Colossians be disciples of the Ephesians. We were discussing Acts 20:1 here - not Colossians.
Who is we? You brought up the Colossians passage in Post 3299 and I have been discussing little else with you since. I could probably switch to Acts 20, but that is not what you and I were discussing.
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Yep, and afterwards it was kept on the Sunday Sabbath.
Why would one do that, since as I have pointed out a ressurection on the first day of the week does not meet the three days and three nights timeline? I don't know what you pointed out but a Sunday resurrection is in keeping with Scripture. The Lord's suffering began in Gethsemane on Thursday night and the atonement experience was completed when He resurrected early Sunday morning. Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night equals three nights. All day Friday, all day Saturday and a partial day Sunday, which is counted as a day, equals three days. So, three days and three nights are involved with the atonement.
Mt 12:40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Since when is Gethsemane the heart of the earth? Also even if tha apostles counted days as the romans do, which makes no since to me, every one of the accounts say, at dawn the women came.
Mt. 28:1 . . .at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
Mr 16:2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb.
Lu 24:1 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.
Joh 20:1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb.
None of these accounts tell us when he arose, however it would have had to have been some time before dawn or at the krack of dawn when He arose. If you wish to count what is called thursday night a full night, then it would end at dawn on what is called friday and one would have to call the krack of dawn a day. If you choose to do midnight to midnight, then you have to play this any portion equals a whole game on both ends. Now, He does not say in the heart of the earth on three days and three nights. He says, three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. If he meant it the other way I am sure some translator would have translated it that why, but no one that I am aware of did.
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Also, I know of nowhere in the Scriptures where it says we should commemorate the day of the week on which the ressurection took place. To learn scriptural truth we must harmonize all pertinent references to the topic at hand. And when we do, we learn Sunday is the NT Sabbath.
Sorry, no shortcuts. If I have to prove my points, you will have to do the same.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:54:46 AM
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SpongeBlog
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Galatians 3 and 4 are parallel passages that help us understand Col. 2 & 3. There Paul shows us that being under the "basic principles of the world" (Gal. 4:3) means being under the law of Moses that governs those things.
The whole context there is how we were locked into the slavery of the flesh by the law. The law governed matters of the flesh (race, sex, foods, funguses, etc.), elemental things of this world, not spiritual matters of the world to come. In Phillipians, Paul makes reference to those who have their confidence in fleshly things, like circumcision and the laws of food and drink--laws that govern things that only have their place in this life while the flesh exists.
"...many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things." (Phil. 3:18-19)
They are putting their confidence in things that have no spiritual signifigance in the things of Christ and the world to come and are actually contrary to Christ. We are exhorted to not rely, as believers, on those things because we have died in our flesh with Christ and are no longer under the authority of laws that govern the flesh.
There is so much to learn about the Col. passage by connecting it with many other passages in the NT. But in this forum it's like putting together a sermon which takes lots of time. Passages from Galatians, Romans, and Ephesians add valuable insight to what Paul is teaching in Col. 2. The bulk of explanation comes from Galatians 3:23 through 5:6. The context there is plainly the law of Moses (not just the rabbinical add-on's) and how we have been set free from that to now serve God in the matter of the law that really counts--love.
Paul sternly warns us through the Galatians to not fall back into the bondage of laws that govern the elemental things of this world. And it is the example of the observance of "days and months and seasons and years" that Paul specifically warns them about falling back into, calling them "weak and miserable principles" (a clear parallel with Colossians). Again, this is all in the clear context of the law of Moses, not civil law, or just rabbinical law. And he is not just addressing the matter of justification unto salvation, but the matter of what the sanctified believing life is to look like.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 11:14:21 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
This need not be interpreted as let no man judge you when you don't pay attention to the Scriptural commands regarding . . ., because these are only shadows . . .
It can be interpreted as let no man judge you regarding these things you are already doing, for those who do not do these things and those who would add additional requirements are not recognizing them as shadows of what has come. It is important that a shadow is not as important than the real thing. However, this does not mean that the shadow disappears when the actual is here, or after it has passed.
No it means don't judge a man be anything of what he does as far as sabbath and food.
Let me give you a example of what I am writing about.
My father-in-law has been a very devout follower of the reformed church. Which you on sunday will do nothing in fact he brags because he was a home builder up until the nineties. That he never had a open house on sunday. He once as I was working in my garage. Trying to fix my wife's vehicle that she drove to work, for the next day. He came in and said this to me. "Don't you know you aren't suppose to work on the sabbath as told in the bible".
To cut to the chase, I have noticed in my life, seeings I am now within a 1/8 of mile from where he lives partime. All the baloney he does on that day.
So again, just to make it simple you should not judge a person for what they do on that day or anyday. If you are having a problem with them on that. Maybe you should take it up with the highest authority.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 11:19:17 AM
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LBolt
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So does the "world" obey the Torah in your view?
Was Moses, Isaiah, David, who were "under the Law" as you understand justified their faith in the Law or their faith in God?
If they were justified by faith, as Habbakuk, say "...the just shall live by his faith", were they living "beggerly lives" because they followed loved God and obeyed Torah (which incompasses love God and one's own neighbor) and prophesied under the Holy Spirit's leading that Israel and Judah should do the same?
Were they trying to subject people to bondage, is probably a better question in your opinion?
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 11:43:29 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
So does the "world" obey the Torah in your view?
There are many unsaved people, relying on Torah observance to relate to God. It is these very kind of people that Paul contends with in the scriptures who are trying to lead people saved by faith back into the bondage of relating to God through law observance. Law observance is not the sign of the believer! Hardly. The scriptures teach of the sure sign of the person saved by faith. And it is that sign that epitomizes the life of the Christian, not OT worship law observance. The Sabbath is not the end-all of the Christian faith. Not even close.
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ORIGINAL: LBolt
Was Moses, Isaiah, David, who were "under the Law" as you understand justified their faith in the Law or their faith in God?
Justified by faith. And for them the evidence of that justification--that faith in God--was the keeping of the OT worship laws (among others). Christ had not died yet to set them free from the total obligation they had as people living under the authority of the law.
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ORIGINAL: LBolt
If they were justified by faith, as Habbakuk, say "...the just shall live by his faith", were they living "beggerly lives" because they followed loved God and obeyed Torah (which incompasses love God and one's own neighbor) and prophesied under the Holy Spirit's leading that Israel and Judah should do the same?
They could prophesy no different. Christ had not died yet. Do you remember in Nehemiah when the returning exiles read in the law about separating themselves from foreigners? When you read it even I can't help but to feel the holiness and significance of the law. I had to shake my self and remind myself that as holy and wonderful as that law was, it has no place in the sancrified, crucified life lived in Christ, yet it was absolutely binding at that time. Paul knew what he was saying when he said even to this (his) day, a veil covers the heart when reading the law. Only keeping the knowledge of Christ at the forefront of thinking (that mindset thing) discerns the role of the law for the NT believer.
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ORIGINAL: LBolt
Were they trying to subject people to bondage, is probably a better question in your opinion?
Yes and no (that's for you micah, lol!). The role of the law was to increase the bondage of the flesh. And the law was certainly in full force at that time, so, 'yes', it was functioning in it's role as prison gaurd. Only in the Spirit are we set free from that bondage of the flesh (a bondage reinforced by the law). We know from Romans that the law that was intended to bring life actually brought death. So in that sense the law was given in a way to liberate people, but not through the letter of the law. That's the irony of law. The very thing that God gave for life actually brings death and bondage. Yet it's principles are what really do give life. But only in the Spirit as we live out the principles of the law, not the letter of the law, in the 'new way of the Spirit'.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 1:13:40 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
Was Moses, Isaiah, David, who were "under the Law" as you understand justified their faith in the Law or their faith in God?
Good graceous LBolt, I hope(I know) that they put their trust in God, not their works.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 1:30:50 PM
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LBolt
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quote:
Only in the Spirit are we set free from that bondage of the flesh (a bondage reinforced by the law...
What is the "bondage of the flesh?" Galation 5:19-21 is one of the NT answers...this isn't a all-inclusive list. Is there a OT reference that Paul (Shu'al) may be referencing? I ask this because the "OT" was the scriptures in use in Paul's day.
Is there a one word answer for the meaning of "Flesh" and if there is what would it be?
Anyone can answer...
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 1:36:00 PM
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micahsixeight
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quote:
SpongeBlog
Is this an accurate representation of your doctrine of the 4th C ?
4th C is not part of the moral law, only a sign that pointed to Christ’s fulfillment of the law giving Christians ‘rest’ from the penalty and works of the law. The first table of the law is subsumed under the second table which is the moral law. Christians are no longer obligated to the first table. 4th C is abrogated because it is a ceremonial law governing worship.
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"But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.' -Jesus, Rev. 2: 4
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 1:51:08 PM
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LBolt
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quote:
There are many unsaved people, relying on Torah observance to relate to God.
Who are these people?
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 1:57:53 PM
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mcleod
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LBolt,
I believe this belongs in the Law thread.
quote:
Is there a one word answer for the meaning of "Flesh" and if there is what would it be?
But here let me give a shot at it if you please.
It is anything I do to try to gain merit with God. That was the whole point of the poor Pharisees, were that they wanted everyone to think they were perfect. Yet were full of hatered towards the less than fortunate ones around them. Like when Jesus said don't be like the hypocrites who will go to great lenghts and show how great they are.
It is called getting humble in my mind that God is greater than I. And my fellow humans, though lost or saved are as equal to me in my walk in life.
though God has allowed me to have fellowship with him, through the shedding of the blood of his son. That I don't forget those principals.
< Message edited by mcleod -- 11/19/2008 2:19:34 PM >
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 2:19:36 PM
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LBolt
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Thanks Mac,
I do intend to keep it Sabbath related. You are right, though I am tettering.
Thanks for the reply you are in the ballpark of what I'm looking for...but there is one word that best describes what "flesh" is or "walking in the flesh."
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 2:24:52 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
quote:
Only in the Spirit are we set free from that bondage of the flesh (a bondage reinforced by the law...
What is the "bondage of the flesh?" Galation 5:19-21 is one of the NT answers...this isn't a all-inclusive list. Is there a OT reference that Paul (Shu'al) may be referencing? I ask this because the "OT" was the scriptures in use in Paul's day.
Is there a one word answer for the meaning of "Flesh" and if there is what would it be?
Anyone can answer...
No, it's two words--'sin nature'. We were once in bondage to the propensity within us, the sin nature, to sin. I'm guessing that the Galatians passage you cite is the list of the deeds of the flesh. Obviously we learn about what those things are from the law, the Psalms, the Proverbs, and the prophets. What is notoriously missing from this and other lists in the NT is not keeping the worship laws of the OT. Paul even openly excludes the law of circumcision when he talks about the person who obeys the law in Romans 2.
(I really have to stop posting until I get home from work. Every minute I post now I have to make up at the end of the day.)
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 2:34:38 PM
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LBolt
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Thank You Sponge. 
I would say plain and simple SIN!
What is sin?
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 4:16:29 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
What is sin?
Well, I suppose cutting the hair on the sides of your head, or cutting your beard. Muzzling an ox while it's treading out the grain. Cross mating different animals. Planting your field with two kinds of seed. Wearing clothes made of two kinds of material (check your labels, folks). Bringing a descendant of an Ammonite (I've heard they still exist), or a person born illegitimately into the assembly of God's people. Not rinsing household articles with water that you touched while unclean because of an emission. Not washing your clothes and bathing after touching anything an unclean person sat on, or after being touched by that person if he did not first wash his hands.
As you can see, I'm making a point before you can make yours. But go ahead, say what you were going to say.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 4:32:27 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
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SpongeBlog
Is this an accurate representation of your doctrine of the 4th C ?
Where did this come from? This is not a quote that belongs to me.
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ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
4th C is not part of the moral law, only a sign that pointed to Christ’s fulfillment of the law giving Christians ‘rest’ from the penalty and works of the law.
No. It is also an illustration of how we are to 'rest' from our evil works of sin. And for the unregenerate people of the OT who don't have the Holy Spirit it has it's value in legislating some element of their relationship with God. A job now done much more effectively by the Holy Spirit, not the written code, in the New Covenant.
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ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
The first table of the law is subsumed under the second table which is the moral law. Christians are no longer obligated to the first table.
Yes we are, but our obligation to the first table finds it's most useful and meaningful expression in the performance of the second table of the big 10. Did you know Paul says things like greed are idolatry? To not be greedy, which robs others of their well-being ('love does no harm to it's neighbor') fulfills the lawful requirement for not worshiping idols. See how it works? Until we all worship God in this infinately higher and more meaningful way we have fallen far, far short of what it really means to worship God the way he wants us to. An OT Sabbath or Feast will NEVER replace or even begin to make up for the absence of that true worship of God. In fact, he doesn't even want the sacrifice of your 'church' stuff until you worship him in this better way first.
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ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
4th C is abrogated because it is a ceremonial law governing worship.
It is no longer literally binding. It finds it's fulfillment (the satisfactory keeping of) in the new way of the Spirit, like circumcision and animal sacrifice for sin. But like both of those, you are free to observe a literal Sabbath if you want. Unfortunately, my experience has shown that many people who do that don't fulfill it's much more meaningful spiritual application. Or for that matter even know what that more meaningful spiritual applicaiton is.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 11/19/2008 4:40:16 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 4:36:47 PM
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Odeliya
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In this particular instance the Hebrew of the Shema when said in Hebrew the way it is written in the Hebrew, for instance in the Interlinear Bible or if one were to look up each word in the Strong's Hebrew section, you can see the difference in LORD being Adonai and instead of being YHWH or Yehovah. That's the point my dear. I was illustrating that there is an inherited aversion of such on Messianics from using the Name of the LORD. This seems be because of possibly a "fence" put up by the sages for fear of breaking the 3rd Commandment. Matthew for instance recognized this and used Kingdom of Heaven more than Kingdom of God, so as not to offend his audience. It was very important in evangelizing the Hebrew people who were redeemed from rabbinic Judiasm and establishing them in their faith. But now that we are free from tradition that says we can says that we are to say His Name.
I see the point now, thank you L for explaining. I don’t particularly share it,I don’t consider the evidence be sufficient, both words are used interchangeably more often then not, including in Talmud. But I promise i will look into it,brother.
But to make it pertaining to our debate, I am a strong believer that God loves when someone addressed him with a sincere, loving, Christian heart – regardless of the language.
Pharisees adressing him in Hebrew are looked down upon. True believer saying his name in Chinese gives God the true praise
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If you get sanctimonios and pompousness out what I post..pray for me please.  You are neither ; but I pray for all my friends here whenever my lazy self gets organized enough to pray sufficient amount of time
What deeply disturbes and troubles me in your, BT and micah positions is seemingly lack of understanding of how detrimental the hypocrisy is. You fellows seem to not distinguish between obeying the Letter and obeying the Spirit. That I will never agree with.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 4:38:41 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
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ORIGINAL: LBolt
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There are many unsaved people, relying on Torah observance to relate to God.
Who are these people?
Majority of religious people i know.
I liked the way Sponge worded it:
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There are many unsaved people, relying on Torah observance to relate to God. It is these very kind of people that Paul contends with in the scriptures who are trying to lead people saved by faith back into the bondage of relating to God through law observance. Law observance is not the sign of the believer! Hardly. The scriptures teach of the sure sign of the person saved by faith. And it is that sign that epitomizes the life of the Christian, not OT worship law observance. The Sabbath is not the end-all of the Christian faith. Not even close.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 6:10:54 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
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ORIGINAL: mcleod
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This need not be interpreted as let no man judge you when you don't pay attention to the Scriptural commands regarding . . ., because these are only shadows . . .
It can be interpreted as let no man judge you regarding these things you are already doing, for those who do not do these things and those who would add additional requirements are not recognizing them as shadows of what has come. It is important that a shadow is not as important than the real thing. However, this does not mean that the shadow disappears when the actual is here, or after it has passed.
No it means don't judge a man be anything of what he does as far as sabbath and food.
For clarity let me point out that it appears this is the premise you are attempting to prove or justify.
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Let me give you a example of what I am writing about.
My father-in-law has been a very devout follower of the reformed church. Which you on sunday will do nothing in fact he brags because he was a home builder up until the nineties. That he never had a open house on sunday. He once as I was working in my garage. Trying to fix my wife's vehicle that she drove to work, for the next day. He came in and said this to me. "Don't you know you aren't suppose to work on the sabbath as told in the bible".
To cut to the chase, I have noticed in my life, seeings I am now within a 1/8 of mile from where he lives partime. All the baloney he does on that day.
So again, just to make it simple you should not judge a person for what they do on that day or anyday. If you are having a problem with them on that. Maybe you should take it up with the highest authority.
Your example does not support the premise stated above. In this passage, Paul does not specifically talk about judgements made by people who do not live by the standards they require of others. So, the fact that you believe your father-in-law did not live according to the standards he required of others has little barring on whether or not one should listen to correction in all cases.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 8:06:08 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 999
Joined: 11/30/2007
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Well, I suppose cutting the hair on the sides of your head, or cutting your beard. Muzzling an ox while it's treading out the grain. Cross mating different animals. Planting your field with two kinds of seed. Wearing clothes made of two kinds of material (check your labels, folks). Bringing a descendant of an Ammonite (I've heard they still exist), or a person born illegitimately into the assembly of God's people. Not rinsing household articles with water that you touched while unclean because of an emission. Not washing your clothes and bathing after touching anything an unclean person sat on, or after being touched by that person if he did not first wash his hands.
I address this in the Law thread...I'll look some things up and give an answer.
I'm not really dealing with the "Worship Laws", uncleanliness...I'm dealing with the 10 C.
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There are many unsaved people, relying on Torah observance to relate to God. It is these very kind of people that Paul contends with in the scriptures who are trying to lead people saved by faith back into the bondage of relating to God through law observance. Law observance is not the sign of the believer! Hardly. The scriptures teach of the sure sign of the person saved by faith. And it is that sign that epitomizes the life of the Christian, not OT worship law observance. The Sabbath is not the end-all of the Christian faith. Not even close.
I can make a strong case that if they were indeed truly following Torah, then they would have and would see that Yahshua is Messiah! John 5:38-47; John 7:19, 37-39. The eye witness testimony of the Gospels attests to Jesus being Messiah and His Torah teachings attests to it as well...what is confusing is the seemingly "contraditions" of Paul writings. When read in context and a glimpse of his life one can see that he taught and follow Torah. Including obeying the 7th day Sabbath.
What's ironic about the situation is that there were those of "the people" that believed that Jesus was "the Prophet" referred to by Moses in Duet. 18:15-18 due to their knowledge of the scriptures.
Jesus presents an interesting argument in John 5:38-47, this too must go in the Law thread... 
However, Sabbath observance is not a salvation issue as much as it is an obedience issue. There are not tons of restrictions as some might think. If you light candles or don't, say the 19 prayers or don't...It is the heart that matters.
It's an obedience issue. I'm of the belief that most of Torah precepts was passed down from Adam down the line, orally and was committed to writing through Moses but I don't have proof of that, however.
Sabbath was there in the beginning. It'll be there in the future, it's the seventh day. What is the difficulty in obeying God's word?
For Cain to be punished for murder it had to be understood it was wrong. We only read about not eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil but apparently it was known not to murder. Unclean animals. Sacrifice...Tithing, which is preached very regularly in the church. That one ordinance we don't mind preaching. 
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What deeply disturbes and troubles me in your, BT and micah positions is seemingly lack of understanding of how detrimental the hypocrisy is.
Micah is on a trail of his own...I'm trying to discern his direction and argument, he makes some good points but then he I get lost a bit. We can all use a good dose of context. That's why I keep studying...I don't know it all. You know what really sobers me and alarms me? I Peter 4:12-19 especially 17-18. That word scarcely is very sobering!! That's a warning to all of us!!
< Message edited by LBolt -- 11/20/2008 9:36:31 AM >
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 8:49:57 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 937
Joined: 12/9/2006
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LBolt,
I'm glad you shared the 1 Peter passage. I don't have time to elaborate, but you are right where I was when God delivered me from relating to him through a sense of law. It wasn't the Mosaic law for me, it was the modern version of 'works' that most believers are ruled by that I struggled with. I will share more later.
Sponge
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:46:45 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 999
Joined: 11/30/2007
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You know, Mr. Sponge, it was never to be about "law" as we think it to be. But God's teaching, instructions and directions for our lives. That would probably be a better definition.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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