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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 6:44:13 AM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
I get what you are saying with this. My husband finds he doesn't identify with a lot of blacks in Canada. He identifies with his own culture and groups pretty much with that, but I haven't really known him to group himself with others outside of his culture (not necessarily a conscious act either.) He even finds that he can't necessarily relate to young kids of his culture that were raised in Canada. If you did a social experiment, you'd probably find he'd group with someone of a different race but his own culture before someone of the same race but a different culture.
Your husband's actions concerning his grouping himself with others of the same culture is absolutely a normal thing to do.
What I do not seem to get is if your husband was in the States and was white and did the same thing he would be labeled a racist.
Some whites in America may tend to group with other whites because they are racist, but to blanket all whites who group with other whites as racist is prejudice in its purist form.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/29/2008 2:49:22 AM
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bentzsur
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would the world be different if jesus was depicted black and remember be honest in your response
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/29/2008 3:06:58 AM
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zamdad
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quote:
bentzsur
would the world be different if jesus was depicted black and remember be honest in your response
No.
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The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/29/2008 3:11:32 AM
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bentzsur
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why zamdad
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/29/2008 3:25:24 AM
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lw9
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quote:
bentzur: would the world be different if jesus was depicted black and remember be honest in your response
Clearly the popular fair skinned, fair haired Euro Jesus is false. The Bible states there was nothing special about Him physically. He apparently did not stand out. The best anyone can reasonably conclude is that He looked middle eastern.
No one knows what He looked like, so I'm not seeing how a different - but equally false - Christ would matter. False is still false. Christ is what God's word says He is, and that is what the world rejects.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/29/2008 10:59:32 AM
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stellaluna
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I agree with lw9. Anyone who thinks Jesus is white is disillusioned.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/29/2008 11:03:25 AM
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rgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bentzsur
would the world be different if jesus was depicted black and remember be honest in your response
I'm thinking that it would probably be the same. There are lots of Black Jesus' and Mary figures all over Europe (I read somewhere that here were probably 400 - 500) - such as the Marija Bistrica in Croatia or the one in Champels France. A lot of these date from the 11 and 12 centuries. Some, maybe earlier. It makes sense for Jesus and Mary to be painted as black or brown (or to be made of materials that are those colors) since it is pretty clear that most of the people in the bible were - given the region of the world and the way people looked at that time - black and brown people.
But I think in general that people, tend to make Jesus and other people in the bible look like idealized representations of their people group. So, white people make Jesus look like them - blondish-brown hair with blue eyes and long hair. Latinos draw him to look like them - glossy black hair, brown skin, brown eyes. Black people draw him to look like them. Dark skin, brown eyes, and usually some sort of dreadlocked or curlier hair (although sometimes his hair is straight here too). I'm sure in China, there are pictures of Jesus that emphasize their features. The white Jesus is the most popular image I think, because whites carried this cultural picture of Jesus where ever they went. As people from other places came to accept Christ, they associated this cultural image with him - but also created their own. I think that a lot of this is a way of embracing Christ as their own. I think it can be very freeing as well for people to see a Christ that looks like them.
But, I've always thought this array of images to be quite odd since in general people insist on authenticity of the bible - the context, the words, the customs, etc. Yet, when it comes to the visual images of major bible characters - the concern for authenticity usually goes out of the window. To be honest, I used always chuckle when I'd watch those older biblical movies. All of the minor characters and extras looked dark and like they are from the middle east - except for Jesus, Mary, and the disciples. They usually looked white and have almost british-like accents. Movies about Moses, Abraham - same thing.
But, interestingly enough, I think this tendency of people to accept what looks like them, highlights the wisdom of God. They bible doesn't really reveal much about the way the Jesus looks - with the exception that he wasn't handsome, that he was a man of many sorrows - and perhaps the nazarene statement could be taken two ways - that he came from nazareth and also followed nazarene traditions - and that includes wearing longer hair. I guess you could make the argument for him being black when it says in Revelations that his hair was like wool and his feet were of bronze - but I personally think that would be taking the text out of context. I don't think it is literal because in the same place it also says that his eyes were like flames. Wool would suggest that he is the lamb of God. Bronze - seems to suggest the materials in the tabernacle - but maybe there is another explanation. I haven't studied it in detail.
I think in many ways we as human beings are limited. Until we really have the mind of Christ, we tend to seperate and judge the worth of things based on outer appearance. Even when we are saved, this area can be a stronghold for many Christians. This is a worldly mindset - but we don't come against that very often (I think in general, we are pretty comfortable with it - to the point that we don't even "see" it any more). I don't have a verse in the bible that says why a description of how he looked wasn't included. But my speculation is that if we knew exactly how he looked, perhaps it would distract us his message, which is that the Jesus died for us because He loves us.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/29/2008 12:12:24 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bentzsur
would the world be different if jesus was depicted black and remember be honest in your response
There's a Christmas song called "Some Children See Him" that describes how the children in different places see the baby Jesus looking like them. Since we're all made in God's image, that shouldn't be a problem and if you're a child, it won't be. It's the prejudices of adults that have made it a problem.
To be historically accurate, one would have to depict Jesus as a Middle Eastern man for the time He walked this earth in human flesh- dark olive skin, dark thick wavy hair and beard, dark eyes.
I have a copy of a painting in which He is depicted as a Native man. I have seen depictions from all over the world showing Him as being from all kinds of peoples and I prefer to think of it as showing the beauty of the faith that Our Lord transcends all cultures and ethnicities while drawing us together as one in Him.
So no, it doesn't bother me at all to see Him as black, white, red, yellow, or brown. I think if He came these days, He would probably be a combination of all of these.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/29/2008 11:43:31 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 687
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From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bentzsur
would the world be different if Jesus was depicted black and remember be honest in your response
If God so desired, Jesus could have been a three toed sloth and i would follow Him just the same, and the world would be no different than it is now.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 12:45:14 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
I'm not solo, but I'm 99.999999% sure that AA means African American.
I agree. Though I would like to point out that, if memory serves, one of the Moderators said awhile back in this thread (or another thread on relatively the same subject) that because of AA's association with Alcoholics Anonymous, we should refrain from using that abbreviation.
I believe Fritz said for folks to not use the abbreviation in reference to black folks...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 3:14:33 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7421
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From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
quote:
ORIGINAL: bentzsur
would the world be different if jesus was depicted black and remember be honest in your response
There's a Christmas song called "Some Children See Him" that describes how the children in different places see the baby Jesus looking like them. Since we're all made in God's image, that shouldn't be a problem and if you're a child, it won't be. It's the prejudices of adults that have made it a problem.
To be historically accurate, one would have to depict Jesus as a Middle Eastern man for the time He walked this earth in human flesh- dark olive skin, dark thick wavy hair and beard, dark eyes.
I have a copy of a painting in which He is depicted as a Native man. I have seen depictions from all over the world showing Him as being from all kinds of peoples and I prefer to think of it as showing the beauty of the faith that Our Lord transcends all cultures and ethnicities while drawing us together as one in Him.
So no, it doesn't bother me at all to see Him as black, white, red, yellow, or brown. I think if He came these days, He would probably be a combination of all of these.
PHW- do you have any links to the song or the painting? They sound awesome!
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 6:51:57 PM
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lexie
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quote:
I have never heard a black person admit to either.
Do you mean actually saying "I'm racist" or just admitting that they don't like people of certain races. Because if it's the second, I've heard it many, many times.
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I want to be more than an ordinary servant.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 7:02:12 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
bentzsur
would the world be different if jesus was depicted black and remember be honest in your response
No. because no matter how we depicted Jesus, we can't seem to see past ourselves. We view things through the lens of our culture, not the eyes of Christ. We're too busy building up the Jesus we want as opposed to the Jesus who is.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 9:50:32 PM
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rgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: litfire2000
Interesting that you bring this up rcjames. I have heard white people and some hispanics admit to being prejudice and even as being racist. I have never heard a black person admit to either. But I believe that prejudice and racism do exist among blacks. My Dad did not go beyond eighth grade in school but displayed a great deal of wisdom. I remember him saying (concerning black/white relations), "Until both sides can admit to their prejudice, race relations will only go to a certain point and no further. After all, you can't correct a problem you don't admit exists).
Interesting, because I've heard black people say that they are prejudiced. Pretty much, I've heard people from different races admit their prejudices to me; actually people admit a lot of different things to me - I'm not quite sure why. Now, I don't hear it a whole lot from black people, but I also don't hear it a lot from white people either (though some have absolutely no problem with letting me know that they don't like me if they are really prejudiced - usually not directly though.) More often though, I'll hear - "I'm not racist" - then the person will say or do something that is incredibly prejudiced, like what happened to me a few weeks ago, when a white administrator at my school told me that he was going to vote for the n***** (referring to Obama). Or I'll hear a black person say "I'm not racist" - then they'll say something incredibly racist to a white person. About a month ago, I heard a black guy making some blanket statement about white people to a white guy. I felt horrible because not only was it wrong - but also because the white guy obviously felt bad when he heard it. I told the white guy, in front of the black guy, that I didn't agree with what was said - and that the statement wasn't true. But I think the damage was done.  .
I do think though, that often in the US, it is assumed that white people by default are racist. However, this isn't the defacto assumption for minorities. (Think for a moment about the questions surrounding the recent election - "Is America READY for a Black President?" - really what they were asking is "Are white people so prejudiced that they will not vote for a black man?") Some whites assume that black people are sitting around saying "whitey this ... whitey that ...." and it really isn't that way. More often than not, if the prejudice exists, it expresses itself differently - not so much in terms of name calling, but rather in intolerance for certain aspects of the white American culture. So because it is expressed differently, I think for minorities, unless they are confronted with it, it is easy to think that they aren't racist. As far as I know - I don't keep up with TV - but there really isn't the image of a racist minority person in popular culture (except maybe George Jefferson - and he was painted in a much more sympathetic light than say - Archie Bunker). I do think though that overall, minorities in the U.S. are sometimes less racist, because they have experienced it - so they know what it feels like - so they'll tend to shy away from certain types of racist displays because of the pain involved. But I also think that minorities - just because of sheer numbers, tend to have more contact with different white people over their lifetime. So, out of all of the white people you meet - a good percentage are going to be cool. On the other hand, I've met some incredibly racist minorities - who despite all of this - still hold hatred in their hearts. But, as a white person, how much contact you have with other people depends on where you live. So, if you get most of your information about black people from the 6:00 news or tv (like "cops" - a show that I despise), or maybe you know the one black guy at work or the black woman at the restaurant that you frequent - you might feel like you know black people - when really, you don't. Or asians. Or hispanics. But again, in spite of this, I've met some white people who were so open and sweet - and they might not really know any minorities at all. I think a lot of it is about the heart of the person.
So, my question to you litfire2000 is - do you know any black people that you actually talk to on an intimate basis? If you don't, then they probably won't reveal anything that personal to you. Or if you do and they don't say anything, you might be friends with someone who isn't racist. Lots of people aren't. But, prejudice and racism exists everywhere in every people group. So while there is wisdom in what your father said, I don't think you can say that just because you personally haven't heard anyone talk about it with you - that you can imply that the reason that race relations are at a certain point (and no further) is because the black people who are prejudiced won't admit it.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 11:43:56 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bentzsur
would the world be different if jesus was depicted black and remember be honest in your response
No. The "depiction" of Jesus of Nazareth is not what transforms sinners into children of God. It is the preaching of the Gospel, which includes the preaching of Jesus of Nazareth, and His death, burial and resurrection.
Jesus of Nazareth was a Hebrew man of the tribe of Judah and the line of David, which went all the way back to Abraham, Shem and Noah.
To depict Him as anything other than a Hebrew of the Hebrews is false. So depicting Christ as black (descended from Ham) is just as false as depicting Him as Caucasian (descended from Japheth).
The Bible is very careful about the genealogy of Christ, therefore there are in fact two genealogies. To play around with the facts simply to be politcally correct is unacceptable to God and to man.
At the same time, in the eyes of the Lord skin color is just skin deep. All human beings are descended from Adam, therefore all are sinners in need of the Savior. When will we get over the stupidity of "race"?
And, yes, I am "racist". I believe there is only one race -- the human race.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 11:47:14 PM
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Roberta_
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Thanks rgod!
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 10:46:18 AM
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lexie
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Rgod - that was a wonderful post.
I find a lot of people think racism and think cross burning or other blatant displays of racism. But they don't realize that while a lot of people harbour prejudices, they aren't going to necessarily be open about them. As well, you do need to have a pretty large cross segment of the population to really make the assertions about groups of people.
Within my husbands family, there are people who told me they don't like white people, and there are people who hold no prejudices. These people all come from the same background, mostly the same experiences, but some chose to rise above it, while others chose to hold onto the anger.
As well, I have been told in the past by friends who are minorities that I am "the only ok white person." So even while you may see someone with me, and think well, they have a white friend, they are still holding onto prejudices but choosing to look past it only in the cases of a small few.
One last thing, prejudices can be changed. We don't always know why people hold on to them. Yes, some people have them for stupid reasons. But I look at my husband - he never met a white person until he was about 9 years old. All he knew was bad things he heard around the neighbourhood, because he grew up in a very segregated place. Even when he came to Canada, while he wasn't rude to white people, he still remembered the things he heard and he chose to stay around people of his own culture. He said it wasn't until he met me at the age of 29 that he really got to know a white person. And shortly before we married he said that both myself and my mother have gotten rid of everything he believed or understood about white people. Before he met me, he wouldn't have said he didn't like white people, but he would have been honest about what he believed and had heard, and it wouldn't have sounded pretty.
So like rgod said, prejudice and racism is a very personal thing, and often we don't know exactly how other people feel.
_____________________________
I want to be more than an ordinary servant.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 10:39:42 PM
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rgod
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lexie - what an awesome post. Thanks for writing it - I love hearing your perspective, and I'm really sorry that you've had to encounter racism with some of your husband's family.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 8:10:55 AM
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SonInMe1
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It doesn't matter to christians what color Jesus was.
It matters to many muslims what color Muhammid was. Funny thing? I heard a pastor make a very valid claim Muhammid was white. Now, how would that jibe with the radical black muslim movement?
Jesus is God. Nothing else matters.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 5:53:49 PM
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lexie
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quote:
I heard a pastor make a very valid claim Muhammid was white. Now, how would that jibe with the radical black muslim movement?
Yeah but that's another way that the religion is messed up. There is a colour hierarchy within the religion. Black Muslims aren't respected by most Arab Muslims. A white friend of mine converted to Islam and she is barely even acknowledged by most.
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I want to be more than an ordinary servant.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 8:10:50 PM
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litfire2000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rgod
So, my question to you litfire2000 is - do you know any black people that you actually talk to on an intimate basis? If you don't, then they probably won't reveal anything that personal to you. Or if you do and they don't say anything, you might be friends with someone who isn't racist. Lots of people aren't. But, prejudice and racism exists everywhere in every people group. So while there is wisdom in what your father said, I don't think you can say that just because you personally haven't heard anyone talk about it with you - that you can imply that the reason that race relations are at a certain point (and no further) is because the black people who are prejudiced won't admit it.
Yes, I do know black people and Native Americans and I have talked with them on an intimate basis. One friend and I discussed this very topic. We agreed that overall the white population had been more open about admitting to prejudice. The point is, prejudice exists. It is a problem. A problem cannot be corrected if it is not acknowledged, and acknowledged by all parties involved.
I, too, have heard racially insensitive and even down right mean comments made by people concerning other races. I have heard white, black, hispanic, asian and native americans all make such statements. I have been in many parts of the U.S., England, several Meditteranean countries and one communist country, the former Yugoslavia. Something I have learned is that while differences exist and some people find cause therein to foster discontent and hatred, the vast majority of people, irregardless of the differences, just simply want to live and let live.
Thank you for the reply rgod. I appreciated the honesty and thought provoking content; very refreshing.
_____________________________
Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 2:52:08 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
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I agree that one's views are often shaped by exposure, or lack thereof, to other ethnicities.
Few non-Native Americans have any knowledge of Native American cultures, histories, or current issues. Most of the time they are unintentionally ignorant and we try not to take offense as it's just that the person doesn't know.
When the ignorance is intentional, we DO take offense as choosing ignorance- especially in this day- is really inexcusable.
Natives can be racist and when the issue of blood quantum comes up it really rears its ugly head, but its more ok to be Native and white than it is Native and black. Then there's the thing where members of one tribe think they're more Indian than members of another tribe, and there's one tribal chief whose name I won't mention who makes it his habit to travel to other states and tries to impose his definition of who's Indian on state-recognized tribes and tribes trying to get federal recognition. Usually the officials from both the state and the state-recognized tribes tell him to go back home and mind his own business. Oh and his tribe has enrolled individuals who are 1/2064th or less degree of Indian blood and the vast majority of them have no knowledge of their tribal culture let alone speak even a word of the language. But he's going to tell the rest of us who's Indian. Yeesh!
Many Native Americans do not like Latinos, and in fact despise Latinos more than whites. That also is racist but more on account of culture than color.
Natives who live in states with reservations, mostly out west, are often subjected to intense racial prejudice by the whites in that area and therefore have a more racist attitude torwards whites themselves. Those of us who live off-rez and in areas further away from the rez usually experience less intense prejudices and may not be as prejudiced torwards non-Indian folks in general.
That being said, due to being savagely raped, beaten, and left to die by 2 white men in a racially-motivated attack, I avoid being in close proximity to white men because it causes me extreme anxiety. Carrying that over to ALL white males because of the actions of a couple might be seen as racist, but it is something I have not been able to get past- perhaps because I was not allowed to seek justice. People who have had to live with violent racial conflict go thru life with PTSD and its accompanying burdens, all of which are debilitating and self-destructive; it is a difficult cycle to break free of.
When I get ticked off at someone being an idiot and refer to their particular idiocy/meaness/etc. as because of their color, then that is willfully racist, and yes- I'm ashamed to say I've done that on occasion. When I get ticked off at someone who is being ignorant towards meor my people based on race, that isn't racist unless I lower myself to their level and respond inkind. Just calling their hand or speaking my side isn't racist and shouldn't be considered as such any more than calling someone's ignorant attitude to the faith or to our country is racist...so long as we ourselves refrain from being ignorant or abusive in our response.
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I don't have anything against other AA's though... just not my cup of tea in relationships.
