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Can someone please explain these verses? - 12/4/2009 10:18:20 AM
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Bamatina
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Hebrews 6: 4-6 and Hebrews 10: 24-26
These verses greatly disturb me. It kinda sounds like if you make a mistake after accepting Christ as your Savior, you are doomed.
I know I accepted Christ as my savior over 10 years ago...and for a while, I lived a Christian life that had me feeling close to God. Then I slipped away from God and have sinned many times. I keep searching for answers...was I truly saved? how do I know? I continually pray for confidence in my salvation but it seems that God is silent. What am I doing wrong?
Many thanks to all who can give me a little guidance in where to go with my search.
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 12/4/2009 11:45:27 AM
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apostolic862004
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This is what 1 John chapter 2 and verse one says:
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
The verses that you are referring to are not just talking about a saint that gets weak and backslides from God. They are talking about someone who knew the truth of God and turn from that truth to believe another doctrine. Once they do that, it is impossible for them to return again to the truth because God will send them a strong delusion.
God understands that we are still in the flesh. We have this treasure in an earthen vessel. So he knew that we would not be perfect. So the admonition that he told John to write was for us not to sin. But that if we did sin, we have a way to get those sins washed away again.
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 12/5/2009 12:28:40 PM
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drmark
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Welcome to the Forums, Bamatina! Every Christian should be "greatly disturbed" by the possibility of apostasy. It is quite real but, by God's grace, it is quite rare. Do you understand the difference between not meeting God's expectations in your daily walk with Him and blatant apostasy? Why do you think you are not feeling close to God at this time in your life? Is He really silent or are you not really listening?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 12/5/2009 4:37:39 PM
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sen10tious
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You stopped reading too soon on the second set of verses. Go on to 27.
quote:
Hebrews 10:26 - 27
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
This refers to deliberate enemies of God. It does not happen by an accidental mistake or a temporary emotional trauma. It most commonly happens as a "growing cold." Over a long period of time, some will lose their love for God.
Salvation is a relationship you have with God, so you can think of it as a relationship or friendship. How do you lose a friendship? Usually two friends just drift away. One (the God-role) may keep sending emails or making phone calls for awhile, but if the other never ever shows any interest, the first one does the polite thing and stops bugging them. This is one way a person becomes an enemy—by abandonment and neglect.
Or, sometimes a big event happens and one person storms away and ends the friendship. (It won't be God, it would be the man.) Jesus promised he would not leave, but you could make a decision to leave Him. This is an enemy by choice.
Other than praying for confidence, what are you doing to actively restore your relationship? If you wanted to make up with an old friend, what would you do? Apologize? Start spending more time with him? Listen to what he says? Offer to participate in the things He is interested in? Prove yourself trustworthy?
_____________________________
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 12/12/2009 10:18:10 AM
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Bamatina
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Thank you for the responses. To answer DrMark's questions. No, I don't understand what apostasy is. Can you please explain? My reasons for feeling far from God...that's an easy question for me to answer. My brother was killed in an accident almost 5 years ago. At the time his daughter was only 4 months old. He was 27 years old. I felt very angry with God. Shane (my brother) was one of the strongest Christians I ever knew. He took every opportunity to witness to people. He was amazingly strong in his faith. So Why? I was emotionally destroyed. My brother was my best friend. He helped so many people so I just couldn't understand why God would take him so young. It felt so unfair and it still does. I spent 3 or 4 years completely running from God. I wanted nothing to do with church, the Bible, prayer...any of it. I was done. What changed that was that my husband and I had a baby 2 years ago. I felt very blessed to have my wonderful son. At the same time I felt so sad...I had this irrational thought that God took Shane so that I could have a child. (I was told by doctors I would never have children). So, I felt very guilty. Ever since my son was born I have tried to reestablish a relationship with God but it just feels empty. I pray and it feels like there's nobody there. I read the Bible, I go to church...I don't know what else I need to do. I feel as though God has abandoned me. And I honestly do not know what to do to fix it.
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 12/17/2009 12:52:33 PM
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drmark
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quote:
No, I don't understand what apostasy is. Can you please explain? I hope this will help - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Apostasy And I also hope you realize that apostasy does not apply to you, Bamatina!
quote:
So Why? I was emotionally destroyed. My brother was my best friend. He helped so many people so I just couldn't understand why God would take him so young. It felt so unfair and it still does. Yes, Bamatina, life is most unfair. That's what it means to live in this fallen world. We will never be able to fully understand why God allows pain and suffering and evil and disappointment and dear Christian brothers to die before their time. But He is still the God who loves us and saves us and enables us to live for His glory.
quote:
I don't know what else I need to do. I feel as though God has abandoned me. And I honestly do not know what to do to fix it. It's really not up to you to "fix it" and I doubt you could even if you wanted to. God is more than capable of helping you restore your joy in Him. It seems you're doing many right things - reading the Bible, going to church, seeking advice here. Have you considered sharing and working through your grief with a professional counselor? Is there a lady or two in the church that has suffered similar loss and is willing to walk a ways with you. Perhaps your pastor can offer some resources to check out while you continue to listen for what God has to give you. God bless your efforts to draw closer to Him, Bamatina!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 12/21/2009 2:41:04 PM
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Giuliano
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bamatina
My reasons for feeling far from God...that's an easy question for me to answer. My brother was killed in an accident almost 5 years ago. At the time his daughter was only 4 months old. He was 27 years old. I felt very angry with God. Shane (my brother) was one of the strongest Christians I ever knew. He took every opportunity to witness to people. He was amazingly strong in his faith. So Why? I was emotionally destroyed. My brother was my best friend. He helped so many people so I just couldn't understand why God would take him so young. It felt so unfair and it still does.
I know it's not much help, but can you thank God for the time you had with him? Sometimes God takes good people for good reasons.
quote:
I spent 3 or 4 years completely running from God.
I left Christianity for over ten years over the loss of a niece. But I got back. I too was angry with God. You have to be honest with God; and if you're still angry, be honest about that too. You won't damage God.
quote:
I wanted nothing to do with church, the Bible, prayer...any of it. I was done. What changed that was that my husband and I had a baby 2 years ago. I felt very blessed to have my wonderful son. At the same time I felt so sad...I had this irrational thought that God took Shane so that I could have a child. (I was told by doctors I would never have children). So, I felt very guilty.
You say you think that's irrational, but it sounds as if it could be true to me. What's to feel guilty about?
quote:
Ever since my son was born I have tried to reestablish a relationship with God but it just feels empty. I pray and it feels like there's nobody there. I read the Bible, I go to church...I don't know what else I need to do. I feel as though God has abandoned me. And I honestly do not know what to do to fix it.
God has not abandoned you. It is possible for us to abandon Him, but God never abandons anyone. If we sin too grievously and especially after knowing the truth, we may harden our hearts so much that we no longer care.
Even saints have these "dry spells" where it seems God has disappeared. It's a test of your faith. It is meant to increase your love and faith. God is not a puppet on a string for us that He should show up whenever it pleases us; and sometimes He stays away to encourage us to perfect ourselves in His absence.
I suggest you read the parable of the ten virgins. Why did the bridegroom tarry? When the bride thinks she is ready, what is taking the bridegroom so long? Think about what brides do when waiting -- they do this and do that, to make themselves more beautiful and pleasing.
I say you're on the right track and don't know it. Your brother was a fine Christian, you say; so surely you think he's in Heaven now, and I hope you think your child was sent to you from Heaven as well. God can use our ties with loved ones in Heaven to pull us upwards. Jesus said he had to go away -- yes, he had to leave earth -- to get his disciples to do what they needed to do.
I am confident you will see your brother someday. Confident. How could God wipe away all tears from your brother if you weren't?
You do remind me of the bride who is impatient for the groom. Do good works so that when he does appear, he will be well pleased. Do your Father's business -- no matter if it seems Heaven is deaf to you. Count it a blessing that you are tested so and can increase your faith and love, not to get something back from God but to do something for Him. Your brother showed you how it's done -- and thank God for that. Some who are weak could not survive such testing; and God does not test them so.
Such things can make you stronger in the kingdom. I have had come "dry spells" myself when it seemed God has disappeared.
You may benefit from reading Job also. Job lost everything he had. He thought he was okay, but he had a problem; and after his testing, he knew something he didn't know before.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
"With his lips," it says. He had his doubts.... In the end, those doubts were erased.
For every time you made a move away from God, you need to make a move towards Him. There can be no bargaining with God since the rule is that He draws nigh to us when we draw nigh to Him. God isn't going to "fix" all those moves you made moving away from Him -- you have to do that, and you sound willing to me. In the end, we will see how all things work together for the good; but now, we do not always see things clearly.
The feeling that it was unfair that your brother died is also something that you may want to think about -- not feel -- think about. Why is that unfair? If you think God is unjust somehow, you need to ask yourself such questions just as Job did.
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/13/2010 8:07:17 AM
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pabrain
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Heb Ch 6 vs 4-6,
As the title of this letter indicates, this group of believers were all Jews who had accepted that Jesus was the Messiah, and were as a result being so severely persecuted by the majority of Jews who did not accept Jesus, that they were giving serious consideration to returning back to established Judaism, until such times as opposition had died down, and then return back again to believing in Jesus as before.
This they are told is an impossibility, however, verse 9 is intended to give them encouragement,
First read verse 9 before you read vs 4-6, and you will see that the writer is quite sure that what is referred to in vs 4-6 has not happened, but there is a fear that it might happen.
Verse 9 of course is the verse that is always omitted when critics quote vs 4-6.
Hbr 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hbr 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hbr 6:6 if they fall away,[fn2] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hbr 6:9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.
Yes but what about "he who endures to the end shall be saved".
Please allow me to add something that often comes up whenever, "O S A S", is under discussion, and there is a reference to Heb 6:4-6, which some interpret as indicating that salvation can be lost.
This of course is not so, because if it were so it would make all the verses that support, "O S A S", untrue, and this cannot be the case, as the Word of God does not disagree with itself, and what's more cannot be made to do so.
The writer is stating at vs 4-6, that this course of action is an impossibility,,, and that is all that is being said here.
I hope that this is of help to you.
Every blessing.
pabrain.
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/13/2010 9:18:07 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sen10tious
You stopped reading too soon on the second set of verses. Go on to 27.
quote:
Hebrews 10:26 - 27
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
This refers to deliberate enemies of God. It does not happen by an accidental mistake or a temporary emotional trauma. It most commonly happens as a "growing cold." Over a long period of time, some will lose their love for God.
Salvation is a relationship you have with God, so you can think of it as a relationship or friendship. How do you lose a friendship? Usually two friends just drift away. One (the God-role) may keep sending emails or making phone calls for awhile, but if the other never ever shows any interest, the first one does the polite thing and stops bugging them. This is one way a person becomes an enemy—by abandonment and neglect.
Or, sometimes a big event happens and one person storms away and ends the friendship. (It won't be God, it would be the man.) Jesus promised he would not leave, but you could make a decision to leave Him. This is an enemy by choice.
Other than praying for confidence, what are you doing to actively restore your relationship? If you wanted to make up with an old friend, what would you do? Apologize? Start spending more time with him? Listen to what he says? Offer to participate in the things He is interested in? Prove yourself trustworthy?
And when someone wilfully sins after they have been saved, are they not rebellous and an enemy of God?
A couple of verses to consider;
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
and
(Joh 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Obedience is paramount in our relationship to God, and that obedience includes
(Rom 12:1,2) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Wilful disobedience will be looked at;
(2Co 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/13/2010 11:42:35 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1987
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
The writer is stating at vs 4-6, that this course of action is an impossibility,,, and that is all that is being said here.
I wonder, if this course of action is an impossibility, then why bring it up at all. It seems to me that if it's impossible anyway, there's no need to even discuss it.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land -- not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. -- Amos 8:11 (ESV)
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/13/2010 2:07:22 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
The writer is stating at vs 4-6, that this course of action is an impossibility,,, and that is all that is being said here.
I wonder, if this course of action is an impossibility, then why bring it up at all. It seems to me that if it's impossible anyway, there's no need to even discuss it.
So you are saying that a Christian cannot sin; wilfully or otherwise????
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/13/2010 3:26:25 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1987
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
The writer is stating at vs 4-6, that this course of action is an impossibility,,, and that is all that is being said here.
I wonder, if this course of action is an impossibility, then why bring it up at all. It seems to me that if it's impossible anyway, there's no need to even discuss it.
So you are saying that a Christian cannot sin; wilfully or otherwise????
Thanks
RC
No
_____________________________
greatdivide46
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land -- not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. -- Amos 8:11 (ESV)
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/13/2010 4:04:59 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Bamatina: Im going to offer you an interpretation of Heb 6 and 10 discussing the context of these sometimes contraversial texts.
Heb6.
The first verse...Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity,
then it goes on to describe several doctrines which are used to bring one to maturity...
vs 3 And this we will do if God permits.
So, up front Hebrews is saying that "lets go on from these elementary doctrines and go forward into maturing in Christ as God permits us".
Then a Caveat...
Hebrews then says...there is an 'impossibility' though, Its impossible to restore repentance back to a person who after so much of God's grace has been experienced by them if they fall away.
The falling away here is not the commiting of various sins, or rebellion to God in some form or idolatry or other heinous sins, but this is far more severe.
This sin is parapiptō literally "having fallen away" we call it apostacy. To leave and renounce the faith and person of Jesus Christ. This has to do with the foundation and bedrock of our religious lives.
So this is not a matter of sinning 'against ' Christ by some act of rebellion to engage in sins of the flesh, but this is a 'rejecting of Christ' as the foundation of their lives. They have no cornerstone upon which to build a life of faith, they do not Build upon Christ in either gold, silver or precious stone...or even....wood hay or stubble. 1Cor 3. Instead Christ is altogether removed as the foundation and an new foundation is taken by them to form their lives upon.
The most horrible judgment is given for this kind of sin.
To prove this as fact several Old Testament pictures are given. Eze_14:13; Eze_15:8
Then, another thought is introduced, that of what Christ now means to them who have apostacized. The writer of Hebrews says…They have “anastauroō” or ‘recrucified’ to themselves….Jesus Christ.
What that means is, the apostate has determined that Jesus Christ is an unclean thing, he is worthy of death, he is useless to society and therefore should be gotten rid of as a criminal….simply Re-crucified as he once was…..except in this case.. cast off from themselves as unworthy to follow and worship. Jesus is to them as Jesus was to the Pharisees when he was crucified. Jesus Christ was of no use to them and a hindrance to their life and religion.
Because these apostates once named Christ, their renouncing him puts him to an open shame. In the end God will put them to eternal misery.
Hebrews then says..."Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things--things that belong to salvation." So the writer of Hebrews does not see them as fitting into his hypothetical case of judgment, but instead "by his own judgment" determines them to be 'in the faith'....because.... "God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love that you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do."
So, the writer of Hebrews makes his case in a severe warning to those who might be toying with the idea of turning away from Christ, and encouraging those who are struggling to consider God does not forget them in their trials.
So, going back to your own situation. Do you renounce Christ? Or, do you see that you need Christ more than ever? If you believe the latter, then you do not fit the situation of an apostate, but that does not mean you are safe. It only means that genuine repentance and submission to God is still your duty. Obey God and believe the gospel, repentance will follow genuine faith.
Faith will be known where actual repentance to God is given.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/13/2010 4:38:35 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Hebrews 10
Bamatina: I will here try to give a contextual interpretation that might help you.
In short, this text is very similar, and is interpreted in the same light as Heb 6.
The writer of Hebrews goes to great trouble to show the superiority of Covenant, Sacrifice, priesthood, promises and such that are given to us through Christ in the New Covenant.
Let us read…. Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.
The writer comes to this conclusion and this admonition to hold fast our hope without wavering….
Now, concerning wavering…the writer of Hebrews issues this warning.
Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
Again, we are not looking at sinning in terms of rebellions and sins of the flesh, but here the writer returns to a previous warning, namely to depart from Christ. This apostasy from Christ puts you in a disastrous situation.
The scope of the book of Hebrews was a reiteration of the teachings originally given to them. It was supposed to show the importance of Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of what God had promised through the prophets and now has come, died and was raised again. But, in order to finally secure the Hebrews and to drive them away from in the utter insanity of abandoning Christ, the writer uses this truth.
The Old covenant is passing away, its been fulfilled and is currently being phased out as more and more gentiles enter the body of Christ and the reality of God’s mighty power is being revealed by making both Jew and Gentile into one new creation. Christ suffices for Priest, prophet and King, All that the Jew ever wanted from God is found in the person of Jesus Christ. Yet, by way of persecution, the Hebrews were pressured to return to Old Covenant forms, and to renounce Jesus Christ. Here the writer issues powerful reasons to reject such ideas.
If you apostatized from the YHVH and his law you would be put to death. To apostatize from Jesus Christ, who is God’s son and has been revealed as greater than Moses, the law and all the prophets is to put yourself in horrible judgment.
Therefore if you willfully sin…(and we all do because none of us are sinning by constraint, but do so as we seek to please our flesh) and you have rejected Christ your only Savior of the New Covenant, and seek to return to the Old Covenant which God has determined to pass away…..you are left with nothing to offer to God for the forgiveness of sins and are now exposed to the horrible judgment of Apostasy and to the judgment of God for all the sins you’ve committed.
Therefore concerning your situation, are you seeking to return to the Law for God to clear you of sins? Which will never approve you, but instead condemn you; or, have you determined that Jesus Christ is not worthy of your worship and devotion and reject him as a sacrifice that was made to remove your sins? If so, you would fall under such horrible judgments as Hebrews has given. But if not, and you simply have not recognized the importance of Jesus Christ and the impossibility of coming to God as “approved” without Jesus Christ….then there is hope that you may repent and believe God will now forgive you and save you from your sins.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/15/2010 3:07:33 PM
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eschatologist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bamatina
Hebrews 6: 4-6 and Hebrews 10: 24-26
These verses greatly disturb me. It kinda sounds like if you make a mistake after accepting Christ as your Savior, you are doomed.
I know I accepted Christ as my savior over 10 years ago...and for a while, I lived a Christian life that had me feeling close to God. Then I slipped away from God and have sinned many times. I keep searching for answers...was I truly saved? how do I know? I continually pray for confidence in my salvation but it seems that God is silent. What am I doing wrong?
Many thanks to all who can give me a little guidance in where to go with my search.
Heb. 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentence; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame."
First of all, the phrase "falling away" refers to completly disbelieving in and rejecting Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God who died for the sins of the whole world and rose again from the dead. Personally I don't see how anybody who has felt and known God's love through Jesus in a miraculous way (which is what it is talking about here) would ever go all the back like that. The reason they can't be renewed to repentence is because Jesus died for them once and for all and in order for them to be renewed Jesus would have to come back and die and shed his blood for them again.
This is confimed later in Hebrews 10:1-5: "For the law....can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have no more coscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." In old testament times they had to keep coming back every year to offer up sacrifices for the sins of the people because those kinds of sacrifices could never completly purge people of their sins.
Then in Hebrews 10:10, "By the which will we are sanctified (cleansed) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11: And every high priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12: But this man, (Jesus) after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God; 14: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." We are perfected forever because we are cleansed by Jesus' blood sacrifice. Jesus offered up himself as the ultimate sacrifice for sins so that once you recieve Him and his love and forgivness for your sins, and confess Him as your Lord and Saviour, you are completly cleansed of all your sins forever. You don't have to keep coming back and getting re-saved and confessing your sins again and again. like they did in old testament times. Once you are cleansed and saved, you are saved forever. There's no turning back. verse 18: Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."
So what it is really saying is that it's impossible to fall away, because it's impossible to renew you to repentence. You are saved forever, there is no need to make further sacrifices for sins, since Jesus did that once and for all.
Hebrews 10: 26-29 For if we wilfully sin after that we have recieved the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses law died without mercy under 2 or 3 witnesses; Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the spirit of Grace."
To me these verse indicate and refer to people who hear the message of God's love, grace and Salvation through Jesus but then reject it, calling it an "unholy thing" in spite of God's loving grace that He has for them. In other words, in affect, they are blaspheming the Holy Ghost, calling it an unholy thing which as Jesus said, is about the only unpardonable sin.
It doesn't refer to all of us imperfect (in ourselves) people who make mistakes. We are perfect, but only because Jesus has cleansed us from all our sins and made us perfect by His blood sacrifice for us. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin. For his seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God." (IJohn 3:9)And we know that whosoever is born of God, sinneth not; (IJohn 5:18)
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/15/2010 3:39:44 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: eschatologist
So what it is really saying is that it's impossible to fall away, because it's impossible to renew you to repentence. You are saved forever, there is no need to make further sacrifices for sins, since Jesus did that once and for all.
I do not think that the passages you quoted say that.
They do say that if one falls away that it would be impossible to be renewed to repentance.
But your jump to "Once Saved Always Saved" is not at all supported in the verses you used, but just the opposite.
Now there are some passages that seem to support OSAS, but not the ones you are trying to use.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/15/2010 3:44:36 PM
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drmark
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quote:
They do say that if one falls away that it would be impossible to be renewed to repentance. Thank you, RC, for that correction. I have read enough commentary on this passage to know that the grammatical intention makes being "renewed to repentance" the action that is "impossible", NOT "falling away". This verse in NO way supports OSAS!
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/15/2010 6:16:18 PM
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GrahamCracker
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To be really honest, I don't think that Hebrews 6 is the least bit concerning the topic of losing one's salvation. My opinion.
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/15/2010 6:27:32 PM
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drmark
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Care to elaborate?
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/15/2010 6:53:34 PM
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GrahamCracker
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Mostly it's about maturity. If you go back to the last several verses of chapter 5, the writer talkedabout how the readers should be mature, but were not. Chapter 6 opens with his exhortation not to retrace old ground.
Verses 4-5, it has often been explained, referred to true believers
Verse 6 is often believed to refer to apostasy. The NET Bible, my everyday Bible translates "fall away" that way. I don't consider it to be apostasy. I could be wrong.
The last part of verse 6 is the most difficult part, IMHO. It is because whatever falling away means, it refers to those who shame the name of Christ. But, at this point, it is clear that it moves onto the topic of fruitfulness and/or wasted lives.
I believe it is talking about wasted opportunities that can never be regained.
Quoting from the Ryrie Study Bible notes on Hebrews 6:4-6 concerning my view, one which Ryrie offers for consideration but not necessarly endorsement:
It is similar to saying to a class of students: "It is impossible for a student, once enrolled in this course, if he turns the clock back [which cannot be done], to start the course over. Therefore, let all students go on to the deeper knowledge." In this view the phrases in vv. 4-5 are understood to refer to the conversion experience....
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 1/15/2010 7:54:02 PM >
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/15/2010 10:08:49 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I don't consider it to be apostasy. I could be wrong. In view of the impossibility of "being brought back to repentance", I see no other meaning for "falling away" but apostasy! If this were merely a maturity issue, then one confesses and repents so that forgiveness is given and fellowship is restored. Nothing "impossible" about that - it happens every day!
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/16/2010 2:01:25 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I don't consider it to be apostasy. I could be wrong. In view of the impossibility of "being brought back to repentance", I see no other meaning for "falling away" but apostasy! If this were merely a maturity issue, then one confesses and repents so that forgiveness is given and fellowship is restored. Nothing "impossible" about that - it happens every day!
The exception is its own weakness. Nearly everyone who believes this is talking about apostasy also believe it is not impossible.
My belief is that the phrase is equivalent to it is "impossible bring them back to the time of repentance."
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/16/2010 7:07:51 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
In view of the impossibility of "being brought back to repentance", I see no other meaning for "falling away" but apostasy!
I agree, but why is it impossible for them to be brought back to repentance. It's impossible to bring them back to repentance because. . . why?
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"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land -- not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. -- Amos 8:11 (ESV)
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/16/2010 9:01:06 AM
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drmark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
In view of the impossibility of "being brought back to repentance", I see no other meaning for "falling away" but apostasy!
I agree, but why is it impossible for them to be brought back to repentance. It's impossible to bring them back to repentance because. . . why?
Because apostates have rejected the Atonement and disgraced the Son of God according to verse 6. The short parable in verses 7-8 shows the distinction between Believers who demonstrate their faith through good works and unbelievers who demonstrate their apostasy through wickedness.
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