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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/25/2010 4:13:51 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 827
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
That verse reads in the Greek "and he that is not subject (apeithon) to the Son shall not see life". This can mean either (a) refusal to believe, willful unbelief, or obstinacy, which the KJV has correctly stated, or (b)disobedience, which is not correct in this context.
The NASB is the strictest English translation we have right now and it renders it disobey.....the is a common Hebrew Parallelism used by John to define the word.
The word is ἀπειθέω,v {ap-i-theh'-o}
1) not to allow one's self to be persuaded 1a) to refuse or withhold belief 1b) to refuse belief and obedience 2) not to comply with
It has a double meaning. (disbelieve and disobey) They both are the same biblically.
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To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is to receive Him as your Lord and Savior, and when He becomes your Lord you become subject to Him.
But nowhere does Scripture teach that we are justified by faith + obedience. That is what the Catholics would have us believe, and it is false doctrine.
That's because faith includes obedience. It is not added to faith.
The word faith means "firm persuasion", to rely on.
Persuasion means to cause (someone) to do something through reasoning or argument.
Therefore faith includes obedience. It always has Biblically!
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I already showed you where Scripture demands obedience to the Gospel, which means repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. You simply ignored that and continue to present your false doctrine, i.e. baptism is necessary for salvation. It is not.
If you want to take "obedience" to its logical conclusion, as I said you must be perfect even as the heavenly Father is perfect, because anything less means that you stand condemned before God. So make every effort to be perfect 100% of the time. If you break the Law in one tiny detail, you have broken the whole Law.
I am sorry my friend but you are partially correct and partially incorrect.
You are right that if you want to rely on the law meaning the law of Moses, Paul says you must obey all of it however if we have faith in Christ then we are set free from sin.
Paul was addressing a specific problem that plagued the new church of Jewish Christians trying to force Gentile Christians to obey the law of Moses to be saved.
Paul is not ruling out obedience in general but obedience to the Law of Moses.
There is a world of difference.
We must pay attention to context!
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/25/2010 11:01:48 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
We must pay attention to context!
Of course, but you can ignore the context of Jn. 3:36 and simply twist the Scripture to suit yourself!
Yes. And in the "context" of all Scripture, obedience means perfect obedience to absolutely everything that God has commanded.
Faith means simply believing God -- taking Him at His Word -- and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
So if you imagine that obedience is necessary for salvation (and there are many who do) then Christ tells you that you must be as perfect as the Father who is in Heaven. That means 100% perfect. I trust you will qualify.
Please let us all know if you are this unique individual.
BTW your reliance on the NASB is simply leaning on a reed that is easily broken. This is as corrupt a translation as any other modern "Bible".
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/25/2010 11:41:40 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 827
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
We must pay attention to context!
Of course, but you can ignore the context of Jn. 3:36 and simply twist the Scripture to suit yourself!
What are you talking about? The whole context of John 3 is where salvation comes from! It comes from Jesus!
quote:
Yes. And in the "context" of all Scripture, obedience means perfect obedience to absolutely everything that God has commanded.
I am sorry this makes absolutely no sense.
Like I said before in the historical context of Paul addressing the Jewish Christians trying to force them to obey the Law of Moses he tells them that we are not saved by works of the Law of Moses. Paul is not saying obedience is not necessary.
No where is that statement in the entire bible!!! You cannot show me one! Not one!
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Faith means simply believing God -- taking Him at His Word -- and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
I am sorry but you are wrong. Look it up in any Greek Dictionary of biblical words.
Faith and belief means "firm persuasion" to rely upon!
Persuasion means " to cause (someone) to do something through reasoning or argument. "
Paul begins and ends the book of Romans talking about obedience of faith!
quote:
So if you imagine that obedience is necessary for salvation (and there are many who do) then Christ tells you that you must be as perfect as the Father who is in Heaven. That means 100% perfect. I trust you will qualify.
I already explained this!
Galatians 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
The context of Galatians is exactly what I am talking about. The whole entire 1st century church had this issues of Jewish Christians going back to the Law of Moses and then trying to get Gentiles to become Jews first.
This is what the council of Jerusalem was about in Acts discussing this huge problem that plagued the early church.
If you don't know this biblical context you miss out on the meaning of the text. You have got to pay attention to context my friend. I urge you to look at the context.
You are making blanket statements out of context. When you ignore context it renders your use of scriptures as false.
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BTW your reliance on the NASB is simply leaning on a reed that is easily broken. This is as corrupt a translation as any other modern "Bible".
NASB is a great translation. It is a word for word translation and the strictest translation to the Greek and Hebrew text.
And I don't only rely on it by the way, I reference five or six translations. The NIV has many errors in it as well.
No translation is perfect so you are right that we should not rely on any one translation.
< Message edited by jjbird -- 2/26/2010 11:15:34 AM >
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/26/2010 10:16:58 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
We must pay attention to context!
Of course, but you can ignore the context of Jn. 3:36 and simply twist the Scripture to suit yourself!
What are you talking about? The whole context of John 3 is where salvation comes from! It comes from Jesus!
jjbird:
You always manage to somehow miss the point. The whole context of John 3 is not "where salvation comes from" but (1) the absolute necessity of the new birth -- vv 1-8, (2) God's offer of eternal life through the Lord Jesus Christ and -- vv 9-21,(3) the witness of John the Baptist -- vv 22-36.
But the key item which you failed to note is the word "believe" and its derivatives repeated 9 times. And that is the context of Jn 3:36
v. 12 -- "and ye believe not, how shall ye believe"
v. 15 -- "whosoever believeth"
v. 16 -- "whosoever believeth"
v. 18 -- "he that believeth"... "but he that believeth not"... "he hath not believed"
v. 36 -- "He that believeth"..."he that believeth not"
That nothing in this chapter relates to obedience for salvation is quite clear just from this. But furthermore, Christ nails down the necessity of simple faith in Himself by specifically referring to the Brazen Serpent in the wilderness which Moses placed upon a pole ("lifted up"). This is a type of Christ "lifted up" on the cross.
If you know anything at all about this incident, you will know that the only thing that the sinner could do was "LOOK" and "LIVE". There was nothing else. No obedience to any commandments, no good works, no efforts on the part of those ready to die. They simply had to look on that serpent and they would live.
That is a lesson in faith. Simply to look on Christ and believe that He died for your sins and rose again for your justification means receiving Him as Lord and Saviour and repenting of your sins. And that is when we receive the gift of eternal life -- the gift of Christ Himself.
Now, when someone like you comes along and tries to apply the secondary meaning of apeithon to this context in order to twist the teaching of this chapter into faith + obedience = salvation, that is a denial of context all together.
This is all I will say to address your misinterpretation (which could cause others to stumble). You may choose to accept it or reject it. But you have no foundation in John chapter 3 for your erroneous belief.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/26/2010 11:03:05 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 827
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
We must pay attention to context!
Of course, but you can ignore the context of Jn. 3:36 and simply twist the Scripture to suit yourself!
What are you talking about? The whole context of John 3 is where salvation comes from! It comes from Jesus!
jjbird:
You always manage to somehow miss the point. The whole context of John 3 is not "where salvation comes from" but (1) the absolute necessity of the new birth -- vv 1-8, (2) God's offer of eternal life through the Lord Jesus Christ and -- vv 9-21,(3) the witness of John the Baptist -- vv 22-36.
Of course the new birth is part of the context however with salvation coming from Christ the new birth is impossible. Why do you think Jesus says this?
John 3:14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
The point of John 3 is where salvation comes from! It comes from Jesus! We must look up to Jesus on the cross like the Israelites looking up to the snake to be saved.
quote:
But the key item which you failed to note is the word "believe" and its derivatives repeated 9 times. And that is the context of Jn 3:36
v. 12 -- "and ye believe not, how shall ye believe"
v. 15 -- "whosoever believeth"
v. 16 -- "whosoever believeth"
v. 18 -- "he that believeth"... "but he that believeth not"... "he hath not believed"
v. 36 -- "He that believeth"..."he that believeth not"
That nothing in this chapter relates to obedience for salvation is quite clear just from this.
The word disbelieve in the Greek is the same as disobey and that is the word used in John 3:36.
quote:
But furthermore, Christ nails down the necessity of simple faith in Himself by specifically referring to the Brazen Serpent in the wilderness which Moses placed upon a pole ("lifted up"). This is a type of Christ "lifted up" on the cross.
Simple faith is not mere credence or mental assent.
The word faith or belief in the Greek means "FIRM PERSUASION", "TO RELY UPON"
Persuasion means to cause someone to do something by reason or argument.
That is why biblical faith always includes obedience. It always has.
quote:
If you know anything at all about this incident, you will know that the only thing that the sinner could do was "LOOK" and "LIVE". There was nothing else. No obedience to any commandments, no good works, no efforts on the part of those ready to die. They simply had to look on that serpent and they would live.
I disagree.....Jesus also commands repentance, baptism and perseverance not just some simple credence or mental assent.
quote:
Now, when someone like you comes along and tries to apply the secondary meaning of apeithon to this context in order to twist the teaching of this chapter into faith + obedience = salvation, that is a denial of context all together.
This is all I will say to address your misinterpretation (which could cause others to stumble). You may choose to accept it or reject it. But you have no foundation in John chapter 3 for your erroneous belief.
Any biblical dictionary of NT Greek words will confirm what I just shared. Just look it up! 
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RE: Saved By Grace - 3/2/2010 11:17:48 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 827
Joined: 5/20/2009
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Where did everybody go?
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RE: Saved By Grace - 3/11/2010 9:48:04 AM
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Linkoln
Posts: 13
Joined: 3/26/2008
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quote:
I disagree.....Jesus also commands repentance, baptism and perseverance not just some simple credence or mental assent.
Jesus commands that we place our faith in Him alone for our salvation. When we come to Him we do so with hearts of repentance that is a gift from God.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 3/11/2010 12:18:45 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 827
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
quote:
I disagree.....Jesus also commands repentance, baptism and perseverance not just some simple credence or mental assent.
Jesus commands that we place our faith in Him alone for our salvation. When we come to Him we do so with hearts of repentance that is a gift from God.
I couldn't agree more my friend! Well said! 
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