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A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/6/2010 11:56:53 AM
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jazzact13
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Since the original thread about McLaren's book has gone off onto other things, I'd like to start up another, or maybe a series of them about the various topics in the book. The book is helpful, at least in this, in that McLaren has divided the content of it into a set of questions. The first, which will be what this is about, is The Narrative Question. I intent to give a broad overview of his points, reference bits as it may be helpful, respond, and so let the sparks fly from there.
He begins by giving what he considers what we consider to be the basic story line of the Bible--Eden, the Fall, Condemnation (or history), Salvation, with a branching off from Salvation to either Heaven or Hell. He claims that this is not the real story of the Bible, but rather a construction based on the influence of Greco-Roman philosophy some time in the early church. He contends that we get this view by looking back on Jesus through the views of those who came after Him--Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, and so on, but that it would look differently if we started with Adam and worked up to Jesus.
He posits that the early church created a Greco-Roman god names Theos, kind of like Zeus, who is the god of this Greco-Roman version of Christianity. This Theos is a god who doesn't like change, doesn't like matter, doesn't like story. This Theos likes unchanging perfection, likes spirit, likes it when things are in a perfect state. This Theos has replaced the Jewish Yahweh in the minds of Western Christians.
In reading the Bible in the way he recommends, from Adam forwards, McLaren claims to see a much different story. Eden is a not a perfect place, but one that is good or very good. It is not a place of static perfection, but of good things that change, and he even brings in the word "evolution". But McLaren plainly states that "It is patently obvious to me that these stories aren't intended to be taken literally...", so the story of Eden is not about a good place God created, but the first few chapters of Genesis are for him a coming-of-age story for humanity.
What this means is that the Fall, where man ate the fruit and sinned, has a different meaning to McLaren. "Rather, it is the first stage of ascent as human beings progress from the life of hunter-gatherers to the life of agriculturalists and beyond". The Fall, then, becomes an ascent, and the stories become an overview of mankind's socio-economic ascent.
From this point, McLaren's politics take over. God likes Abel's more "primitive" life as a herder over Cain's more "advanced" life as a farmer, because it's "not as morally compromised as settle farm life, with it's fenced-in privately owned lands, accumulation of possessions, violent seizure and defense, and related moral entanglements". So, McLaren's god does not like farmers, because they own the land they use to farm with. God punishes Cain by making him a hunter-gatherer. He goes on from there for a while, through Noah and Abraham and Joseph.
With Exodus, he finally tells us that the Bible story has what he calls "three dimensions". The first is "liberation", told through God liberating the oppressed Israelites in Egypt. The second is "internal liberation", which is about personal sins, which is God's dealings with Israel in the wilderness. The third is what he calls "the peaceable kingdom", which seems to take up the rest of the Old Testament. He claims that it reaches a sort of apex with King David, but fizzles out, and the dream changes, and becomes about a time. The prophets, like Isaiah and Joel, speak of coming time when God would set things right with the world--no war, wolves and lambs frolicking together, God will pour out His spirit on all flesh. But we can't interpret these things literally, but rather through the paradigm of his politics--wolves living with lambs means religious pluralism and ecumenism as Christians accept Judaism and Islam as fellow-travelers on the road to god. People keeping their vitality up to and beyond age 100 is about passing Obamacare. Men and women prophesying and knowledge of the Lord filling the would be about "....a deep kind of universal and egalitarian spirituality", which strikes me as being rather New-Agey.
Several things come to mind from all of this.
First, I've no idea where he gets the idea that Christians never view Jesus through the lens of the Old Testament. It's patent nonsense for him to insinuate it. It has been a common contention that the Old Testament points toward Christ; for example, Abraham's sacrifice of his son Isaac, which God himself commanded and interrupted, points to God's sacrifice of His own son Jesus, a sacrifice God did not interrupt.The Psalmists and Prophets spoke of Christ.
Of course you can contend that there is no Fall in the Bible if you're going to redefine the Fall as an ascension. I've only read the few chapters of the book that are associated with this Narrative Question so far, but if the best McLaren can do to disprove the biblical narrative he so obviously despises is to claim that the something like the Fall was actually an ascension, then only those who are already committed to believing him will continue to believe him. It seems even many who may have liked him in the past are finding his new work off-putting.
When I've heard people speak of the perfection of Eden, I've heard it referred to as "sinless perfection"--that it was perfect in the sense the man had not sinned, and the consequences of sin had not yet entered into the world, consequences like death. I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone say that Eden was a place where nothing changed.
Concerning his Theos, he does very little, if anything, to actually prove such a concept was ever created. He claims Greco-Romanism, adds a dose of his politics, and claims that almost right off the bat the church began getting the story of the Bible wrong. He makes claims about this Theos, tries to contrast it with Yahweh, and of course thinks Yahweh was much better than Theos. I'm still not convinced Theos isn't a strawman.
Some statements seemed rather incredible. On pages 40 and 41, he says about the Jews, "They (at their best) acknowledge the right of other nations to have their own languages and customs and even religions;...". When was Israel in the Bible ever so ecumenical? Is he really serious in saying that it didn't matter that the other nations are worshiping idols? That the God of Israel is completely ok in the Old Testament with Ba'al, Dagon, Asheroth, and the other gods of the nations around Israel?
On page 57, in dealing with Moses and the freeing of Israel from Egypt, he says that in regards to Pharoah's refusal to let God's people go, "God resonds with a firm but gentle consequence: a plague on the Nile River, which is the lifeblood of the civilization. Ironically, perhaps through a red tide, the Nile turn red like blood". Has McLaren adopted a materialistic view of the Bible? Is he now denying miracles? Does he think that the Egyptians were so stupid that they could not distinguish between a red tide and blood? A page later, in regards to the what happened with Moses and Egypt, "The so-called supernatural, in this way, seems remarkably natural".
Maybe the part that is most outrageous is when he tries to make the Fall, when man rebelled about God and ate the fruit God had forbidden them to eat, into a part of a mere "coming of age" story. Since this is the part that most brings into question his contentions, it's not surprising that McLaren tries to play it down, but his flippancy is distasteful to the extreme.The Bible treats that event very seriously, so for McLaren to treat it like the premise to all too many bad movies, or to try to spin it to fit his socio-economic politics, doesn't hold water. Consider the passages of Scripture...
quote:
For as through one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:19
Therefore as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed upon all man, for that all sinned
Romans 5:12
Verses taken from the book "What the Bible Teaches" by R.A. Torrey
The Bible does not brush aside this event with a flip of the wrist, but deals with it seriously, and sees its consequences through human history.
In regards to his take of the prophecies of a time when God will set things right with the world, let me reference someone else's words, because he says it rather well, I think. "The bottom line was that nothing like what Jesus said was going to happen was really going to happen, but that's okay, He didn't really mean that all that would happen, and besides, it really did happen, but it just wasn't anything like what He said would happen. So it's really all okay." This can be found here.
I can't say as I'm impressed so far.
Edited to insert something I forgot earlier, I'll put it in a different color.
< Message edited by jazzact13 -- 3/6/2010 7:04:48 PM >
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/6/2010 4:31:57 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
But McLaren plainly states that "It is patently obvious to me that these stories aren't intended to be taken literally...",
This statement is sufficient to tell us that McLaren's "new kind of Christianity" is really "the old kind of liberalism", which actually began in Eden when Satan asked "Yea, hath God said...?"
There is nothing new under the sun, and McLaren has revealed his true colors. Christians who know the Word should simply ignore him. The more you discuss him, the more important he becomes. And that is the last thing we need.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/6/2010 4:39:29 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
But McLaren plainly states that "It is patently obvious to me that these stories aren't intended to be taken literally...",
This statement is sufficient to tell us that McLaren's "new kind of Christianity" is really "the old kind of liberalism", which actually began in Eden when Satan asked "Yea, hath God said...?"
There is nothing new under the sun, and McLaren has revealed his true colors. Christians who know the Word should simply ignore him. The more you discuss him, the more important he becomes. And that is the last thing we need.
Agreed Ezra, McLaren worships at the altar of bloviating, and there is nothing about his ideology (I refrain from using Theology with him) that has not been floated before, agnosticism, universalism, revolution theology, social justice theology, etc. etc.
Folks who spend time studying his writings will soon come to the knowledge of the truth that understanding where he come from is akin to nailing jello to the wall. But of course that is the purpose of the writings of all the Emergent folks; to "Out Bloviate" one another.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/6/2010 6:41:35 PM
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litfire2000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
But McLaren plainly states that "It is patently obvious to me that these stories aren't intended to be taken literally...",
This statement is sufficient to tell us that McLaren's "new kind of Christianity" is really "the old kind of liberalism", which actually began in Eden when Satan asked "Yea, hath God said...?"
There is nothing new under the sun, and McLaren has revealed his true colors. Christians who know the Word should simply ignore him. The more you discuss him, the more important he becomes. And that is the last thing we need.
I'm not certain how you are applying the word liberalism...it's kinda confused me a little
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Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
Many people desire to serve God in the capacity of an advisor
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/6/2010 7:45:21 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
I'm not certain how you are applying the word liberalism...it's kinda confused me a little
We are referring to theological liberalism. See quote below and link for further information.
quote:
Liberalism: Saving Christianity From Itself
The classic liberals of the early twentieth century, often known as modernists, pointed to a vast intellectual change in the society and asserted that Christianity would have to change or die. As historian William R. Hutchison explains, “The hallmark of modernism is the insistence that theology must adopt a sympathetic attitude toward secular culture and must consciously strive to come to terms with it.”[1]
This coming to terms with secular culture is deeply rooted in the sense of intellectual liberation that began in the Enlightenment. Protestant liberalism can be traced to European sources, but it arrived very early in America—far earlier than most of today’s evangelicals are probably aware. Liberal theology held sway where Unitarianism dominated and in many parts beyond.
Soon after the American Revolution, more organized forms of liberal theology emerged, fueled by a sense of revolution and intellectual liberty. William Ellery Channing, an influential Unitarian, spoke for many in his Theologians and preachers began to question the doctrines of orthodox Christianity, claiming that doctrines such as original sin, total depravity, divine sovereignty, and substitutionary atonement violated the moral senses.generation when he described “the shock given to my moral nature” by the teachings of orthodox Christianity.[2]
Though any number of central beliefs and core doctrines were subjected to liberal revision or outright rejection, the doctrine of hell was often the object of greatest protest and denial.
...Revising Hell: A Test Case for the Slide into Liberalism
...First, a doctrine simply falls from mention.
...Second, a doctrine is revised and retained in reduced form.
...Third, a doctrine is subjected to a form of ridicule.
...Fourth, a doctrine is reformulated in order to remove its intellectual and moral offensiveness.
http://christmyrighteousness9587.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/albert-mohler-on-how-theological-liberalism/
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/6/2010 7:56:08 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
The more you discuss him, the more important he becomes.
I wish I could agree, but at some point, we have to see that he and the other emergents are out there doing damage, and we can't keep quiet about it. It is too late to try a "Just ignore them" tactic, if it was every possible.
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/6/2010 11:48:06 PM
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didymus101
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"Atheists are so boring; all they do is talk about God." S. Clemens
Is that outline and definition of liberalism written by a liberal? Can we really accept that "liberalism" started in Eden with Satan, as ezra suggests?
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/7/2010 8:11:06 AM
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KaptZ
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I think the Bible just means different things to different people.
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/7/2010 10:41:51 AM
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didymus101
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Plain and simple (and from lengthy experience): Liberalism worships the god of Reason, and will have no other gods before it.
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/7/2010 11:24:13 AM
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KaptZ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: didymus101
Plain and simple (and from lengthy experience): Liberalism worships the god of Reason, and will have no other gods before it.
Curious. My experience tells me the opposite. Most of the people I have met who scoff at or have little time for religion have been self-proclaimed conservatives.
Still, there's no doubt there are significant differences of opinion among followers of any faith.
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/7/2010 4:07:26 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: didymus101
Plain and simple (and from lengthy experience): Liberalism worships the god of Reason, and will have no other gods before it.
That's an good summation, though the worship of reason isn't completely confined to them. Randian Objectivists, for example, are more liberatarian then liberal, and claim to be based in reason. Funny, though, how despite all to the differences between Objectivist and Communist, both dismiss religion, one may be particularly Christianity, as being against their views.
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/7/2010 6:00:00 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
Curious. My experience tells me the opposite. Most of the people I have met who scoff at or have little time for religion have been self-proclaimed conservatives.
Are you sure that you are not confusing political conservatism with religious conservatism?
quote:
Still, there's no doubt there are significant differences of opinion among followers of any faith.
I would submit that on things salvic that there is more consensus among Protestants than there are difference on things Salvic.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/7/2010 10:31:29 PM
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sue244
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Thanks Jazz for going into depth with this book. I am actually glad in some ways that McLaren has published this book as it gives us set beliefs and ideas to look at when it come so the Emergent Church. Before they would never seem to define what they were say so it was like many posters said in other treads, trying to nail jello to a wall when talking about what Emergent believe.
Reading your summary it really doesn't seem like anything new, just the same old ideas passed around to discredit the Bible and Christianity.
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It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/8/2010 6:52:27 AM
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cposey
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quote:
Plain and simple (and from lengthy experience): Liberalism worships the god of Reason, and will have no other gods before it.
I have also noticed plenty of Christians that use reason and what they call "God given wisdom" to try and understand God. Many of them are the ones who put down and try and elevate themselves above the unsaved.
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/8/2010 6:59:11 AM
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cposey
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quote:
This statement is sufficient to tell us that McLaren's "new kind of Christianity" is really "the old kind of liberalism", which actually began in Eden when Satan asked "Yea, hath God said...?"
I would say that this movement is something new and not just the same old thing. This church has gained mass membership and is using a big hole in the traditional church to its advantage. It entices people with love and acceptance, good works and many other things that the traditional church lacks.
How about we try and exemplify Christ adn let HIS light shine on this darkness. Instead of calling these people names and labeling them this and that, how about we consider why people feel the need for this new movement.
I can gaurentee you that the people that attend these churches were drawn because a deficeincy and disenfranchising of whatever church they used to attend.
So how about we combat it in a way that is God directed.
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/8/2010 1:04:52 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
Thanks Jazz for going into depth with this book.
Thank you. I hope you find it helpful.
quote:
Reading your summary it really doesn't seem like anything new, just the same old ideas passed around to discredit the Bible and Christianity.
Pretty much, which even one fairly well-known emergent has said on his blog. Some of the ways of dressing things are different, I suppose (constitution vs library), but yes, it all adds up to the same thing.
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/8/2010 1:09:37 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
I would say that this movement is something new and not just the same old thing.
Your are entitled to your opinion.
quote:
It entices people with love and acceptance, good works and many other things that the traditional church lacks.
The church lacks love, acceptance, and good works? Since when?
Oh, you probably define those words as emergents do--love equals the social acceptance of whatever sexual practices a person thinks they are oriented to, acceptance equals ecumenism and universalism, and good works equals liberal social justice and liberal activism.
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/9/2010 7:13:19 AM
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cposey
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quote:
The church lacks love, acceptance, and good works? Since when?
Oh, you probably define those words as emergents do--love equals the social acceptance of whatever sexual practices a person thinks they are oriented to, acceptance equals ecumenism and universalism, and good works equals liberal social justice and liberal activism.
Look here hoss, don't put me in some category with wacky people who believe they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. I am far from it. I hold a very disciplined life for myself. But as far as churches not extending love, acceptance and good works, it is definetly lacking. Many people on these forums, people i know and books have been written on the subject. Most churches are more focused on building funds, adhering to centuries old traditions, the board of directors, and if you don't put on some kind of false happy go lucky, know all the right words and get accepted into one of the churches holy cliques, than you are treated with at least a mild neglect, if not have nose and thumbs flipped up at you.
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/9/2010 8:51:42 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
Most churches are more focused on building funds, adhering to centuries old traditions, the board of directors, and if you don't put on some kind of false happy go lucky, know all the right words and get accepted into one of the churches holy cliques, than you are treated with at least a mild neglect, if not have nose and thumbs flipped up at you.
Have any specifics or are you just generalizing.
What you are describing, I have only noticed in a very very few Churches, and I've been to hundreds of Churces.
Sometimes folks let their cynacism cloud their judgment.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/9/2010 8:54:39 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
Oh, you probably define those words as emergents do--love equals the social acceptance of whatever sexual practices a person thinks they are oriented to, acceptance equals ecumenism and universalism, and good works equals liberal social justice and liberal activism.
You are correct jazzact13, and non of the things you list concerning the Emergents are Scriptural, but only porceed out of the minds of confused folks.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/9/2010 12:04:25 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
Look here hoss
Whatever you say, Little Joe.
quote:
Most churches are more focused on building funds, adhering to centuries old traditions, the board of directors
Yes, yes, I've had my own spots of chagrin over church building funds. But on the other hands, I haven't known any churches who are building-fund-only. I can think of a church that I attended for a time a few years ago, that was trying to pay off their building, but they also gave money to missionaries and other such things. I can think of a church I attended while in college, a rather small church, that helps support their small town's crisis pregnancy center.
So, yes, I ask "Since when?", because I've not seen many examples this lack of those things you claim is so prevalent. What I do see is that some people are trying to re-define those words so that the church doesn't have them as these people define them, some examples of which I listed--ecumenism, acceptance of the gay lifestyle, universalism, liberal concepts of social justice, and so on.
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/9/2010 3:43:23 PM
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cposey
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quote:
Have any specifics or are you just generalizing.
What you are describing, I have only noticed in a very very few Churches, and I've been to hundreds of Churces.
Sometimes folks let their cynacism cloud their judgment.
Do you want specifics on names or what. I too have been to quite a few churches and have found this to be true more times than not.
There is a difference between seeing a need and cynicism. If i were cynical than everything i saw or did or said would carry the thought of negativitiy.
Just because a church is of a traditional denomination, does not automatically make it scripturally based, it is what the people live out inside of that individual church. We cannot bury our heads in the sand and say that we have truly seen the condition of our churches.
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/9/2010 3:45:34 PM
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cposey
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quote:
What I do see is that some people are trying to re-define those words so that the church doesn't have them as these people define them, some examples of which I listed--ecumenism, acceptance of the gay lifestyle, universalism, liberal concepts of social justice, and so on.
Every traditional denomination that i know of has accepted gay pastors, board members, women as pastors, they have boards that decide on money, direction, programs, instead of being led by God. What is the difference?
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/9/2010 3:59:36 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
Every traditional denomination that i know of has accepted gay pastors, board members, women as pastors, they have boards that decide on money, direction, programs, instead of being led by God. What is the difference?
How about a list of traditional denominations that accept gay pastors etc.
It should not take long, for it would be really a short list.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A New Kind of Christianity: The Narrative Question - 3/10/2010 7:00:13 AM
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cposey
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I have been to Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Assembly of God, Church of God, Baptist and Catholic churches and have seen gay pastors, board members, and women as pastors(except Catholic).
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