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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 12/29/2009 5:46:17 PM
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Reba
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What of Hebrews 9?
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 12/29/2009 5:59:50 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
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Any specific verse, the last two give the time of judgment of those that die before His return as being at His return?
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 12/29/2009 6:13:23 PM
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Reba
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I was going to pick a few verses but after reading the chapter as a whole i thought it best not to break it up....
You guy post long post i do try to keep up and understand the repete... I do not understand how you come to believe the blood, in a veins of a person, gives them some kind of spicial salvation. It is His Blood that saves not the blood of one's mom, correct?
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Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 12/29/2009 7:48:28 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
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Hi Reba,
Only blood of only the begotton Son of God can remove sin for all people. Sorry for the long posts.
Later, Wayne
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 12/29/2009 10:20:17 PM
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Leonelrb
Posts: 18
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quote:
quote:
then what is your idea of those people in heaven? Do they need to be resurrected from any kind of death?
Yes.
quote:
Do you believe they are disembodied spirits in need of their fleshly bodies again?
Yes. So did Peter. 2 Peter 1:13-15 (ESV) “I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder, [14] since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. [15] And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.” See Paul, also, 2 Cor. 5:1-10.
quote:
What if they are given a spiritual body?
Not yet. Hebrews 12:22-23 (ESV) “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, [23] and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,”
quote:
Are they going to put off this body and put on the fleshly body again?
They have no body to put off. They wait for their bodies. Otherwise why are they called “the dead in Christ”? What is it about them that is dead? Their bodies. But if they have a resurrected body now, why are they still called dead?
This is a conversation that took place a long time ago and it can be found on post# 120. It really got my attention the way these questions about death were answered. I also noticed after reading further into the rest of the posts, that there are a lot of people who agree with these views. It is hard for me to agree with these answers if I take into consideration what Jesus told the Thief on the cross:
“Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.“ , and Jesus replied by saying: “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Lk23:42-43)
Is not this paradise that Jesus was talking about supposed to be the ultimate place for us believers as God describes it on Revelation 2:7?
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God."
If I am mistaken, can somebody give me an explanation as to why the answers in the quote above differ with my reasoning?
Thank you
_____________________________
The End of Times Is Now. http://www.endtimesprophecy.us
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 12/29/2009 10:54:42 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
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I take it to mean Jesus was preaching the Gospel as soon as He entered the grave. The two thieves would have stayed in the grave when Jesus was resurrected.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 12/30/2009 1:38:58 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leonelrb
quote:
quote:
then what is your idea of those people in heaven? Do they need to be resurrected from any kind of death?
Yes.
quote:
Do you believe they are disembodied spirits in need of their fleshly bodies again?
Yes. So did Peter. 2 Peter 1:13-15 (ESV) “I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder, [14] since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. [15] And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.” See Paul, also, 2 Cor. 5:1-10.
quote:
What if they are given a spiritual body?
Not yet. Hebrews 12:22-23 (ESV) “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, [23] and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,”
quote:
Are they going to put off this body and put on the fleshly body again?
They have no body to put off. They wait for their bodies. Otherwise why are they called “the dead in Christ”? What is it about them that is dead? Their bodies. But if they have a resurrected body now, why are they still called dead?
This is a conversation that took place a long time ago and it can be found on post# 120. It really got my attention the way these questions about death were answered. I also noticed after reading further into the rest of the posts, that there are a lot of people who agree with these views. It is hard for me to agree with these answers if I take into consideration what Jesus told the Thief on the cross:
“Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.“ , and Jesus replied by saying: “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Lk23:42-43)
Is not this paradise that Jesus was talking about supposed to be the ultimate place for us believers as God describes it on Revelation 2:7?
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God."
If I am mistaken, can somebody give me an explanation as to why the answers in the quote above differ with my reasoning?
Thank you
Leonelrb
Look at Luke 16:19-31 The rich man and poor Lazarus.
Abraham's side or the bosom of Abraham and Paradise can be synonymous terms. This was the holding area for OT saints. Across a deep chasm was Hades.
So when Christ died in went into Paradise to bring those souls up to heaven after His resurrection. Today you will be with me in Paradise. The souls of the OT saints could not get to Heaven until the true Lamb was sacrificed.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 12/30/2009 9:10:33 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 764
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Hi Marv,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Wayne
A point to consider.
How many people die in this war? 10 Million, 50 Million, 100 Million, etc.
With 5 plus million now in Israel, How many can be buried is a day or week. There wood be 180 working days once you take out the 30 Sabbaths from the 7 months. It could be mind boggling.
Now consider what the lose of a workforce that would affect these invading countries. Look at Rev 13:10 - If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. Talking about Trib Saints. Just a possible relocation of the saints to be slaves.
In Christ
Montana Marv
Hopefully we are playing with the same numbers. The 200,000 M army of the 6th trump is killed on that day, there is the armies of men that have been following the Kings set up by the Beast from the Pit, they would all be gathered around Jerusalem so they are a possibility. They would be the ones who did not heed this call.
Isa:66:23:
And it shall come to pass,
that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another,
shall all flesh come to worship before me,
saith the LORD.
Isa:66:24:
And they shall go forth,
and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me:
for their worm shall not die,
neither shall their fire be quenched;
and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
The 2nd woe is said to take 1/3 of man, at 6B that would be 2B that are killed within the time the Beast is given. 5 of the 42 given months are gone before the killing starts. 3 years and 1 month later the 3rd woe starts, this is Christ's return. All He is going to punish have been punished by the end of that 1st day, same with rewards and starting with resurrection from the grave for the whole House of Israel and the Church. Israel is in shambles but all the wicked in the world are dead. The sword that killed the ones in Israel also killed many in the Nations. 7 years and 7 months later Israel is cleansed of weapons of war and the bones of the ones that fought against Christ are in their grave. Now the Nations get searched for those that died in the same manner as those in Israel. It is not said how long that takes, there is almost a 1,000 years available.
Eze:39:12:
And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them,
that they may cleanse the land.
Eze:39:13:
Yea,
all the people of the land shall bury them;
and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified,
saith the Lord GOD.
Eze:39:14:
And they shall sever out men of continual employment,
passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth,
to cleanse it:
after the end of seven months shall they search.
Eze:39:15:
And the passengers that pass through the land,
when any seeth a man's bone,
then shall he set up a sign by it,
till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamon-gog.
Eze:39:16:
And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah.
Thus shall they cleanse the land.
Out of the 4B left at the end of the 2nd woe Christ kills 2/3 of them, the remaining 1/3 are alive for the 1,000 years along with all of Israel and whoever else qualifies for Re:20:4. I don't even have an idea how many the whole House of Israel would be. Not a small number and given that they are immortal and do not need rest, or food, or bathroom breaks they could do a very through job of cleansing the land in 7 years (weapons) and 7 months (bones). In those 7 years there will also be 7 feasts of the Tabernacles, a visit by all the remnant of the Nations. I believe they also bring gifts that are used to decorate Christ's House of Prayer.
Zec:6:15:
And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD,
and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
And this shall come to pass,
if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.
Later, Wayne
Nope. The verses you quoted from Isa. 66 take place AFTER the New Earth! Read through the WHOLE chapter again. See, this is what I mean: we get it in our heads that these verses have to somehow fit into our schema of the end-times, and then, if it doesn't fit, ... well, by jingy, we'll MAKE it fit!
No, what we NEED to do is READ! And then, if something we read doesn't fit into our little box, then we need either to re-make our little box or to discard the box altogether! Furthermore, IMO, it's not enough to read the Bible in English. No translation is one-to-one. There will always be discrepencies, no matter which version we use, no matter how well-intended the translators. Idioms don't translate well. Humor doesn't translate well. Plays on words don't translate well.
We need to read it in the original languages, and if we don't have that ability, then we need either (1) to LEARN the original languages, or (2) to read an interlinear with a good lexicon and a Greek grammar and a Hebrew grammar! I personally think it's just easier in the long run to learn the original languages.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
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The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 12/30/2009 9:49:31 AM
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Reba
Posts: 771
Joined: 8/18/2008
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1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 12/30/2009 10:08:06 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 764
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, again, Wayne.
As a post script, let me just add that I DID that! I discarded the box of premillennial, pre-trib rapture, leaning-toward-dispensationism viewpoint while I was in Bible college back in 1977-78. I had been totally disillusioned by my pastor having an affair with the church secretary. I discarded everything except the facts that there IS a God, that He HAS a Son, that He would want to communicate with us through the Bible, and that He sent His Son to die for us and save us. I knew that much was true because I had already been saved. Beyond that, everything was questionable!
I had to rebuild my beliefs from the ground floor and up, and I dropped all labels as well. I couldn't have a "Tribulation" let alone a "Seven-Years Tribulation" because the Greek word "thlipsis" merely means "pressure!" Tags were a hindrance to the truth. Other labels were the same. There are problems with labels: For instance, the "Millennial Kingdom" is imprecise! The Kingdom lasts forever; however, we ARE told about a "millennium," which is Latin for "a-thousand-years" (Greek: "chilia etee"), to come in Rev. 20!
If I found something to be true in Scripture, it became a plank, no matter what camp had it as one of their planks. If I found something not to be true, I did NOT just leave it out; I TAGGED it as UNTRUE and added WHY it was UNTRUE! That way, if I stumbled on it later on, I didn't have to re-think it and perhaps change my mind. Then, if I discovered some other basic truth that was involved in the process of deciding why something was untrue, I could delete that reason from the list of reasons as to why I tagged that thought as untrue. IF all the reasons for why I had tagged the thought as UNTRUE disappeared, THEN I could re-evaluate the original thought.
TIME and TIMING need to be factors, as well. Why do you think so many people reject the 1000-year transition known as the Millennium? I believe it's because they misunderstand the TIMING of events! Furthermore, all events and periods of time have REASONS for being. These need to be understood, as well. What purpose do they serve?
Above all else, consistency is the key to a good understanding of prophecies and end-times events.
This is why I claim none of the various camps--pretrib, posttrib, prewrath, or even preterist. None of them would claim me!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 12/30/2009 10:58:33 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Nope. The verses you quoted from Isa. 66 take place AFTER the New Earth! Read through the WHOLE chapter again. See, this is what I mean: we get it in our heads that these verses have to somehow fit into our schema of the end-times, and then, if it doesn't fit, ... well, by jingy, we'll MAKE it fit!
Take a close look at how that verse is written, it introduces the new earth as something that will be made, the only part of the New Earth being described is how long it will exist, eternally. The verse after is covering the same people and event as the ones who are killed by Christ's sword in the previous chapter and those are the same people in ch:66 that fit in with this general description, the armies that die in Israel at Christ's return
Isa:66:22:
For as the new heavens and the new earth,
which I will make,
shall remain before me,
saith the LORD,
so shall your seed and your name remain.
The event these next two verses describe are the same event.
Isa:66:16:
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh:
and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Isa:65:12:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Ch:65 calls some servants, they are the ones alive after the sword has taken away all others. Ch:66 also has some words about those same groups. Vs:17 is still about some that the sword will consume on a worldwide scale, it starts on the Temple mount in Jerusalem and before it is finished the whole Earth is consumed. The ones that escape the beginning of the destruction would be the ones that heeded Christ's plea at the last moment before destruction starts. The 'remnant' of Re:11 that give glory to God could well qualify as being witnesses, the ones that see the destruction of the city from a distance could also be part of the ones spared. Eze:39:2: mentions 1/6 (of the human army that stays or leaves, that verse alone does not determine if the 5/6 are sent away and it is the 1/6 that falls to Christ's sword).
Vs: is the message getting to everybody left alive in the Nations and it is the Gentiles who bring (fellow believers in Christ) the survivors in the Nations ti Israel because the news is out that Christ is there and in control of all things. That would include a whole house of Israel that has been healed in body and in heart. Vs:20 defines two groups, those that bring offerings are bring offerings that are as pleasing to Christ as are the offerings from the children of Israel. I don't believe the 144,000 are going to need any assistance from a people that have escaped death by the skin of their teeth.
Last but not least the remnant of the Nations would be included in Re:20:4, they will be Priests and Kings to God and to the Lamb. They are fulling that prophecy when the New Earth is unveiled after the final judgments are past.
Isa:66:17:
They that sanctify themselves,
and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst,
eating swine's flesh,
and the abomination,
and the mouse,
shall be consumed together,
saith the LORD.
Isa:66:18:
For I know their works and their thoughts:
it shall come,
that I will gather all nations and tongues;
and they shall come,
and see my glory.
Isa:66:19:
And I will set a sign among them,
and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations,
to Tarshish,
Pul,
and Lud,
that draw the bow,
to Tubal,
and Javan,
to the isles afar off,
that have not heard my fame,
neither have seen my glory;
and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
Isa:66:20:
And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses,
and in chariots,
and in litters,
and upon mules,
and upon swift beasts,
to my holy mountain Jerusalem,
saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Isa:66:21:
And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites,
saith the LORD.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
No, what we NEED to do is READ! And then, if something we read doesn't fit into our little box, then we need either to re-make our little box or to discard the box altogether! Furthermore, IMO, it's not enough to read the Bible in English. No translation is one-to-one. There will always be discrepencies, no matter which version we use, no matter how well-intended the translators. Idioms don't translate well. Humor doesn't translate well. Plays on words don't translate well.
So if one verse is saying 2/3 of 'somebody' dies and another verse from another passage that is about the same time and place gives the information that all will die from the sword' then Scripture would have to be describing two different 'somebodies' in order for Scripture to be in harmony. Just those two passages are not enough determine if the same sword is being referenced. Jesus mentions two swords as being enough, His is is Heaven and the other was left on Earth as described in Romans 13. Add a few more passages about the same event and it turns out there are two swords, part of the reason Christ uses His sword on some is because they have been using their sword to cause evil rather than fighting it.
Translation errors can affect the meaning of a verse, it might even muddle the true meaning of a passage. Every concept the Bible brings forward is mentioned in more than one place. To truly muddle the picture everyone of those passages would have to be altered, that rules out accidental corruption of meaning. You also seem to be hinting that the Bible is not very easy to understand. Finding all the passages that apply to one event in prophecy is not an easy task. Understanding what all those passages say is not as hard a task. Some things will be readily apparent, some are only made clear after info from some other passage is added.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
We need to read it in the original languages, and if we don't have that ability, then we need either (1) to LEARN the original languages, or (2) to read an interlinear with a good lexicon and a Greek grammar and a Hebrew grammar! I personally think it's just easier in the long run to learn the original languages.
Don't most of your examples simply give a reference to how a certain word was used in other places in Scripture. You don't seem to promote the reader doing a word search to see how it was used in other places.
A true life experience, a short time ago I was having a conversation with somebody as to what 'lie with' means. She was saying it could mean , cuddling' which is not adultery. By showing her a verse (from several) that specifies that getting pregnant was the purpose of 'lying with' a man. That seemed to settle it that it 'most likely meant sex was happening and if it wasn't your wife it was adultery.
In this example the word 'cut-off' is the one under question. Your method would bring up about 7 different possibilities based on how it was used in some other verse. That makes 'choosing the right one' more difficult, your books solve that for you, they tell you the 'answer'. If part of their argument includes how that meshes with some specific doctrine then their answer has influences. It would seem that comparing all 7 to that verse to see if contest can be established to help come to the correct conclusion. That will most likely just narrow down the possibilities rather than nail it down to just one answer (when it starts with 7).
How ironic would it be for a book that is full of errors (KJV1611) to be read by a person who reads with many errors (me) to have those errors simply cancel each other out? 
Later, Wayne
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 12/30/2009 11:12:33 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 764
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Leonelrb.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leonelrb
quote:
quote:
then what is your idea of those people in heaven? Do they need to be resurrected from any kind of death?
Yes.
quote:
Do you believe they are disembodied spirits in need of their fleshly bodies again?
Yes. So did Peter. 2 Peter 1:13-15 (ESV) “I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder, [14] since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. [15] And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.” See Paul, also, 2 Cor. 5:1-10.
quote:
What if they are given a spiritual body?
Not yet. Hebrews 12:22-23 (ESV) “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, [23] and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,”
quote:
Are they going to put off this body and put on the fleshly body again?
They have no body to put off. They wait for their bodies. Otherwise why are they called “the dead in Christ”? What is it about them that is dead? Their bodies. But if they have a resurrected body now, why are they still called dead?
This is a conversation that took place a long time ago and it can be found on post# 120. It really got my attention the way these questions about death were answered. I also noticed after reading further into the rest of the posts, that there are a lot of people who agree with these views. It is hard for me to agree with these answers if I take into consideration what Jesus told the Thief on the cross:
“Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.“ , and Jesus replied by saying: “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Lk23:42-43)
Is not this paradise that Jesus was talking about supposed to be the ultimate place for us believers as God describes it on Revelation 2:7?
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God."
If I am mistaken, can somebody give me an explanation as to why the answers in the quote above differ with my reasoning?
Thank you
With all due respect to Montana Marv, Luke 16 makes no such mention of "paradise" (Greek: paradeisos), and the whole theory is based on an obscure passage which makes reference to "he led captivity captive" (Psalm 68:18 quoted in Ephesians 4:8).
There are three places in the New Testament where the word "paradise" (transliterated from the Greek word "paradeisos") can be found: Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; and Rev. 2:7.
Since your question is about the first of these three, we will look at the other two later.
First, allow me to explain that I accept NO instance of the word "heaven" as being anything other than an "atmosphere" or a "sky." Here's why:
In EVERY reference to "heaven," "heavens," "heavenly," or "heavenlies," you will only find a handful of Greek words that were so translated: These Greek words are "ouranos," "ouranios," "ouranothen," "mesouraneema," and "epouranios." The iota added to the ending of "ouranos" (making "ouranios") makes the word mean "of or related to ouranos." The ending "-then" on "ouranothen" makes the word mean "from ouranos." "Mesos" was added to "ouranos" and the ending was changed to "-eema" to make the fourth form, and "meouraneema" means "in the middle of the ouranos." Finally, the word "epi" was added to "ouranos" and the ending was given the iota again. This makes the form mean "of or related to above the ouranos." Let's start with the form that is used only three times and all in the book of Revelation: "mesouraneema," Rev. 8:13; 14:6; and 19:17.
Rev 8:13
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
KJV
Rev 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
KJV
Rev 19:17-18
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
KJV
In the first two instances, the creature flying in the "middle of the ouranos" was an angel; so "ouranos" could be an atmosphere, outer space where the planets and stars are, or some place beyond called the "abode of God." Thus, those verses are inconclusive; HOWEVER, the third verse is the limiting factor: In 19:17-18, the creatures that are flying are the "fowls" or the "birds!" Well, birds do not fly in outer space, and they most probably are not beyond outer space in "God's abode," not if they are to “eat the flesh of kings, captains, mighty men, horses, those who sit on the horses, and all men free and bond, small and great!” Therefore, we are talking about "ouranos" referring to an atmosphere, where we normally find birds flying.
Angels (as the theory goes) can fly in the atmosphere as easily as they can in outer space or in "God's abode," but birds can ONLY fly in the atmosphere. Therefore, "ouranos" refers to the "atmosphere" of our planet--the "air" or the "sky."
Now, we can look at Strong's Dictionary of the Greek Language and find that...
NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
So, while the word may be thought to refer to God's abode "by extension," the main idea of the word is "the sky," just as we concluded above. Furthermore, the other things the word MIGHT refer to, the abstract concepts, are purely "implied." In other words, the contexts of the places the word is found have led some translators to use those concepts in their translating process of that context, although not necessarily of that word itself. As one can see after the "KJV -" tag, the word was only translated as "air," "heaven," "heavenly," or "sky" in the King James Version of the Bible.
Thus, if we substitute "sky" everywhere we see the word in our forms above, we get:
"Ouranios" means "of or related to the sky."
"Ouranothen" means "from the sky."
"Meouraneema" means "in the middle of the sky." Finally, the word
"Epouranios" mean "of or related to above the sky."
And, if we substitute "atmosphere" everywhere we see the word in our forms above, we get:
"Ouranios" means "of or related to the atmosphere."
"Ouranothen" means "from the atmosphere."
"Meouraneema" means "in the middle of the atmosphere." Finally, the word
"Epouranios" mean "of or related to above the atmosphere."
I prefer the latter translations because I believe that the word is referring to the gases of our atmosphere that can support the wings of the birds as they fly.
Now, let's test this in a passage from Matthew:
Matt 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV
The highlighted words above, "heaven," "sky," "sky," and "sky," are all EXACTLY THE SAME GREEK WORD, "ouranos!" (You'll never see them translated the same word, though, not in ANY English version!) Perhaps, the Pharisees and Sadducees were using the word as "God's abode," but Yeshua` (Jesus) brought them back down to earth and GAVE THEM WHAT THEY ASKED FOR (even if it wasn't what they wanted): a sign from the SKY! "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!" See how it works? Take ANY passage that uses the word "heaven" and try substituting "sky" (or "the sky") and see what you get! You'll be amazed at how simple it makes things!
Now, I said all that to say this: The word "epouranios" is a VERY special word! As you can see from the above, it is the ONLY one of the five that could refer to some place OTHER THAN the atmosphere! Indeed, it is only found in a few verses itself: 19 times in the NT! John 3:12; 1 Cor. 15:40 (twice), 48 (twice), 49; Eph. 1:3, 20; 2:6; 3:10; 6:12; Phil. 2:10; 2 Tim. 4:18; Heb. 3:1; 6:4; 8:5; 9:23; 11:16; and 12:22. Most of the time it is translated in the KJV as "heavenly" or "heavenly things," although a couple of times it was translated "celestial," once it was translated "high," and once as "of things in heaven." For the sake of this argument, I’m just going to use the ones in 1 Corinthians and the last two in Hebrews in their contexts. You can peruse the others at your leisure:
1 Cor 15:39-49
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
KJV
Verse 40 begins by saying that there are two different types of bodies: the bodies upon the earth, and the bodies above the atmosphere. Then, Paul gives examples of the sun, the moon, and the stars which exist above the atmosphere, all the while talking about their “glory.” “Glory” is a word translated from the Greek word “doxa” meaning…
NT:1391 doxa (dox'-ah); from the base of NT:1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):
KJV - dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Thus, it means to “make something very apparent” such as a glowing white object against a dark background, like a star or the moon, or a white-yellow shining object against a blue sky, like the sun! Indeed, the English words “glory” and “glow” come from the same Latin root word “gloria”! Some music professionals make it a point to sing the word “glory” as “glo-ry” not “glor-y.”
Then, in talking about our resurrected bodies, Paul uses the SAME word in verse 43: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in GLORY (“doxa”), indicating that it will GLOW, like the sun, moon, and stars!
Down in verse 49, he continues to indicate the same message: “as we have borne the image of the earthy (Adam), we shall also bear the image of the One from above-the-atmosphere (the Messiah).” Makes one remember two things: Yeshua`s transfiguration (Matt. 16:27-17:13; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:26-36) and what Paul saw on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:3-9; 22:6-11; 26:12-18). One might even remember how Yeshua` was described in Revelation 1:12-16; 21:23; and 22:5. Our new bodies will glow and shine in Yeshua`s presence, just as Moses’ face did when he came down from Mount Sinai (Ex. 34:29-35; 2 Cor. 3:7-14).
Heb 11:13-16
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
KJV
Heb 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
KJV
Now, we get into it: The better country that they sought, the country from above the atmosphere was the city that God had prepared for them. In 12:22, it is called “Mount Zion, the city of the living God, and the Jerusalem from above the atmosphere!”
NOW, recall the words of Yeshua` in John 14:1-3:
John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV
He’s talking about the Jerusalem from above the atmosphere!
Now, let’s bring in Rev. 2:7:
Rev 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV
So, the tree of life is in the middle of the paradise of God. But, where are we told that the tree of life is later?
Rev 22:1-2
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV
So the tree of life (many trees of that species) were on either side of the river of water of life all within the median of the city’s street that was made of pure gold (Rev. 21:21). And what city are we talking about?
Rev 21:1-2, 9-13
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
…
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
KJV
THIS is the paradise of God that Yeshua` told the thief next to Him about. So, YOU are right; however, the "paradise of God" IS the New Jerusalem that Yeshua is RIGHT NOW preparing for us, which will one day land here on the New Earth that will be resurrected from the ashes of the present earth. (Oh, and we WILL be getting back our physical bodies--"spiritual" bodies does NOT mean that they are immaterial but that they are SUPER bodies!)
In the Messiah’s love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread - 12/30/2009 11:24:10 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Roy
Good for you.
I don't know Greek or Hebrew.
Just how different our minds process things:
With regard to the end times I like to weigh descriptive words in verses such as the word "all" or "whole", do the words "all or whole" mean "all or whole" or just sometimes "all or whole". Such as Rev 13:3 - The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. And vs 8 - All the inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life.... Is there a time limit put on these verses? I don't see one.
I also like to use" cause and effect". You cannot have an effect without a cause, and you cannot have a cause without an effect or effects.
Example: When the A/C makes his appearance (his fatal wound is healed), what event superseded it (a cause). My belief is that is the war of Ezk 38,38. He is killed in the process of the attack on Israel.
If other similar verses or events do no weigh up to the descriptive word, then to me it must have a different time frame and thus the two are not connected.
In short, this is how look at "end of the age" prophecy.
Also if a prophecy is designated to a particular group, no one can supersede it or be interchanged with it, because if they do, it ceases to be true prophecy. Then whatever prophetic events that follow in that same chapter may also be false then.
Different minds process things differently.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 12/30/2009 1:12:08 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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As with all things speculative, my post here:
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=4682189
was incomplete, though not necessarily incorrect. The purpose of my original post was to establish the general area from which the Beast will come in opposition to some futurist views that this Beast would come from America, the U.N., Europe, or anywhere else other than the near-east in relation to Israel.
“In the last days of those kingdoms, when rebellions are finished, a stern-looking king who understands mysterious things will rise to power. He will become very strong, but not by his own strength. He will cause astounding destruction and will be successful in everything he does. He will destroy those who are powerful along with some holy people. He will cleverly use his power to deceive others successfully. He will consider himself to be great and destroy many people when they don't expect it. He will oppose the Commander of Commanders, but he will be defeated, though not by any human power. The vision about the {2,300} evenings and mornings that was explained to you is true. Seal the vision, because it is about things that will happen in the distant future.”
Daniel 8:23-26 (GW)
“I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns on its horns. There were insulting names on its heads. The beast that I saw was like a leopard. Its feet were like bear's feet. Its mouth was like a lion's mouth. The serpent gave its power, kingdom, and far-reaching authority to the beast.”
Revelation 13:1-2 (GW)
The following confirms my research that pegs the Seleucid Empire (see post, linked above) as the seat of this Beast.
quote:
Antiochus IV Epiphanes ("Manifest (God)"[1], "the Illustrious"; Greek: Ἀντίοχος Ἐπιφανὴς, pronounced [ænˈtɑi̯əkəs ɛˈpɪfəniːz]; born c. 215 BCE; died 164 BCE) ruled the Seleucid Empire from 175 BCE until his death in 164 BCE. He was a son of King Antiochus III the Great and the brother of Seleucus IV Philopator. His original name was Mithridates; he assumed the name Antiochus after he assumed the throne.
Sacking of Jerusalem and Persecution of Jews
While Antiochus was busy in Egypt, a false rumor spread that he had been killed. The deposed High Priest Jason gathered a force of 1,000 soldiers and made a surprise attack on the city of Jerusalem. An official Antiochus appointed as High Priest, Menelaus, was forced to flee Jerusalem during a riot. On the King's return from Egypt in 167 BCE enraged by his defeat, he attacked Jerusalem and restored Menelaus, then executed many Jews.[6]
“ When these happenings were reported to the king, he thought that Judea was in revolt. Raging like a wild animal, he set out from Egypt and took Jerusalem by storm. He ordered his soldiers to cut down without mercy those whom they met and to slay those who took refuge in their houses. There was a massacre of young and old, a killing of women and children, a slaughter of virgins and infants. In the space of three days, eighty thousand were lost, forty thousand meeting a violent death, and the same number being sold into slavery. ”
— 2 Maccabees 5:11-14
To consolidate his empire and strengthen his hold over the region, Antiochus decided to side with the Hellenized Jews by outlawing Jewish religious rites and traditions observed by more orthodox Jews and by ordering the worship of Zeus as the supreme god.[citation needed] This was anathema to the Jews and when they refused, Antiochus sent an army to enforce his decree. Because of the resistance, the city was destroyed, many were slaughtered, and a military Greek citadel called the Acra was established.[7]
“ Not long after this the king sent an Athenian senator to force the Jews to abandon the customs of their ancestors and live no longer by the laws of God; also to profane the temple in Jerusalem and dedicate it to Olympian Zeus, and that on Mount Gerizim to Zeus the Hospitable, as the inhabitants of the place requested...They also brought into the temple things that were forbidden, so that the altar was covered with abominable offerings prohibited by the laws. A man could not keep the sabbath or celebrate the traditional feasts, nor even admit that he was a Jew. At the suggestion of the citizens of Ptolemais, a decree was issued ordering the neighboring Greek cities to act in the same way against the Jews: oblige them to partake of the sacrifices, and put to death those who would not consent to adopt the customs of the Greeks. It was obvious, therefore, that disaster impended. Thus, two women who were arrested for having circumcised their children were publicly paraded about the city with their babies hanging at their breasts and then thrown down from the top of the city wall. Others, who had assembled in nearby caves to observe the sabbath in secret, were betrayed to Philip and all burned to death. ”
— 2 Maccabees 6:1-11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes
Antiochus Ephiphanes is the archetype upon which the end-times Beast is based, and his kingdom was, in fact, the Seleucid Empire which encompasses virtually all of the former Persian Empire.
One more thing:
In Revelation 17, we see a picture of the prostitute and the beast. Note this passage:
"The angel asked me, “Why are you surprised? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and the beast with the seven heads and the ten horns that carries her.
"You saw the beast which once was, is no longer, and will come from the bottomless pit and go to its destruction. Those living on earth, whose names were not written in the Book of Life when the world was created, will be surprised when they see the beast because it was, is no longer, and will come again."
Rev. 17:7-8
Some have suggested this prophecy concerns Rome and the Catholic Church as the prostitute, claiming that Rome was built on "seven hills" and that the prostitute sits on "7 mountains."
I don't know why this never struck me before, but the phrase "is no longer" in verse 8 disqualifies Rome! Rome was in power during John's vision, so "is no longer" doesn't seem to fit Rome as the model of the Beast. It would have to be an older, extinct kingdom (or empire) that had once dominated the earth, was no longer, and will rise again.
Remember, Persia (Iran) was a large part of the Seleucid Empire under Antiochus Epiphanes.
What can we glean from secular references to Persia after the fall of the Seleucid Empire to Rome?
"Taking advantage of Antiochus' western problems, King Mithridates I of Parthia attacked from the east and seized the city of Herat in 167 BCE, disrupting the direct trade route to India and effectively splitting the Greek world in two.
Recognizing the potential danger in the east, but unwilling to give up control of Judea, Antiochus sent a commander named Lysias to deal with the Maccabees, while the King himself led the main Seleucid army against the Parthians. After initial success in his eastern campaign, including the reoccupation of Armenia, Antiochus died suddenly of disease in 164 BCE."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes
When we look at who the Parthians were, we find this:
"Parthia is a region of north-eastern Iran, best known for having been the political and cultural base of the Arsacid dynasty, rulers of the Parthian Empire.
By the 2nd century CE, the wars with Rome and with the nomads, and the infighting among the Parthian nobility had weakened the Arsacids to a point where they could no longer defend their subjugated territories. The empire fractured as vassalaries increasingly claimed independence or were subjugated by others, and the Arsacids were themselves finally vanquished by the Persian Sassanids, a formerly minor vassal from southwestern Iran, in April 224.
Under the Sassanids
Under Sassanid rule, Parthia was folded into a newly formed province, Khorasan, and henceforth ceased to exist as a political entity. Some of the Parthian nobility continued to resist Sassanid dominion for some time, but most switched their allegiance to the Sassanids very early. Several families that claimed descent from the Parthian noble families became a Sassanid institution known as the "Seven houses", five of which are "in all probability" not Parthian, but contrived genealogies "in order to emphasize the antiquity of their families."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthians
Finally, look at those nations today that do not recognize Israel's right to exist:
"We must not reward Israel for its crimes," said a statement issued at the end of the three-day meeting of foreign ministers of the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC).
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE54O3R520090525
Where is the OIC located?
"The Parliamentary Union of the OIC member states (PUOICM) was established in Iran in 1999 and its head office is situated in Tehran. Only OIC members are entitled to membership in the union."
"Pakistani Foreign Minister Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri told reporters on 14 February 2007 that the Secretary General of OIC and foreign ministers of seven "like-minded Muslim countries" would meet in Islamabad on 25 February 2007 following meetings of President Musharraf with heads of key Muslim countries to discuss "a new initiative" for the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Kasuri said this would be a meeting of foreign ministers of key Muslim countries to discuss and prepare for a summit in Makkah Al Mukarramah to seek the resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_the_Islamic_Conference
I could go on, but hopefully you're starting to get a clearer picture of what's happening. Iran (Persia) is again rising to threaten Israel. It seems all the pieces are in place.
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 12/30/2009 2:25:34 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
I could go on, but hopefully you're starting to get a clearer picture of what's happening. Iran (Persia) is again rising to threaten Israel. It seems all the pieces are in place.
The Beast from the Pit is said to give 10 men kingdoms after it meets with them for 1 hour, how could Iran give 10 men power that would cover the globe?
Persia is never said to be put into a pit any more than Babylon or the Medes or the Greeks, or the Romans. If there is a return to the way things were in the days of Noah then the one coming out of the pit would be a fallen angel, one that was viewed as a king prior to the flood, which is when he was put into the pit.
Later.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 12/30/2009 4:27:08 PM
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Leonelrb
Posts: 18
Joined: 12/24/2009
Status: offline
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Hello Retrobyter,
quote:
(Oh, and we WILL be getting back our physical bodies--"spiritual" bodies does NOT mean that they are immaterial but that they are SUPER bodies!)
Thank you very much for that great explanation. I am still struggling with the quote above. Are you saying that this physical body will be similar to the body Adam and Eve had before they sinned, or will this be a superior body? Will these physical beings be able to reproduce again?
_____________________________
The End of Times Is Now. http://www.endtimesprophecy.us
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 12/31/2009 1:49:17 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Roy
RE: Paradise, Bosom of Abraham, Abraham's side.
I say these terms are synonymous as used in Jewish culture. If you look at Matt 12:4- For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
If you look at the words in Luke 23:24 - Jesus says, today you will be with me in Paradise. Where did Jesus go after his death but to the heart of the earth. Jesus said today to the thief on the cross, not tomorrow or next week. Today would be before sundown.
But in Luke 16:22 The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side, the rich man died and was buried. In hell where he was in torment. The rich man conversed with Father Abraham.
Now if the repentant thief on the cross went to Paradise, where did the third man go. Most likely where the rich man went, hell.
Now if Christ went to Paradise with the thief on the cross, guess what. Paradise was in the heart of the earth at that time. Paradise, Abraham's side, Bosom of Abraham. These terms are synonymous as used here.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 12/31/2009 8:03:47 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
The Beast from the Pit is said to give 10 men kingdoms after it meets with them for 1 hour, how could Iran give 10 men power that would cover the globe?
I'm not saying Iran is the Beast. Iran or Syria - both parts of the Persian (and later, Seleucid) Empires is where the beast will come from. The Beast is a man, not a region, and he will be like Antiochus Epiphanes, whose very name was blasphemous ("Manifest God").
The significance of Iran is that it already leads a 57 nation organization of governments (OIC) that does not recognize Israel's right to exist: that would like to see it destroyed.
I put this study together because there was a time when all sorts of theories abounded as to who this Beast was, and from where he would come. Some have suggested he would come from the revived Roman Empire seen in the current European Union. Others have suggested the U.N., or even the United States!
But when you look at the history of the Persian, Greek, and Seleucid Empires, especially as they relate to Israel, you don't need to look any farther than this to understand the region from which the Beast will come, and how Israel and Christ's church is threatened - even today - by Iran and Islam. Check out
http://www.jihadwatch.org
and
http://www.persecution.com/public/newsroom.aspx?clickfrom=bWFpbl9tZW51
for more.
I want to add one more thought here: look at Revelation 12...
"A spectacular sign appeared in the sky: There was a woman who was dressed in the sun, who had the moon under her feet and a crown of 12 stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant. She cried out from labor pains and the agony of giving birth."
The woman in childbirth is Israel.
"Another sign appeared in the sky: a huge fiery red serpent with seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept away one-third of the stars in the sky and threw them down to earth."
This is a depiction of Satan who rules the governments of men.
"The serpent stood in front of the woman who was going to give birth so that it could devour her child when it was born. She gave birth to a son, a boy, who is to rule all the nations with an iron scepter."
This is a depiction of Jesus, the Messiah.
"Her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne."
Christ crucified and resurrected.
"Then the woman fled into the wilderness where God had prepared a place for her so that she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."
This is 3.5 years, part of the Tribulation period.
"Then a war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels had to fight a war with the serpent. The serpent and its angels fought. But it was not strong enough, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. The huge serpent was thrown down. That ancient snake, named Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world, was thrown down to earth. Its angels were thrown down with it."
Satan cast out of heaven where he has stood as a accuser of the Lord's people, even until now.
"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, power, kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah have come. The one accusing our brothers and sisters, the one accusing them day and night in the presence of our God, has been thrown out. They won the victory over him because of the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. They didn't love their life so much that they refused to give it up. Be glad for this reason, heavens and those who live in them.
"How horrible it is for the earth and the sea because the Devil has come down to them with fierce anger, knowing that he has little time left.”
"When the serpent saw that it had been thrown down to earth, it persecuted the woman who had given birth to the boy. The woman was given the two wings of the large eagle in order to fly away from the snake to her place in the wilderness, where she could be taken care of for a time, times, and half a time."
A depiction of Israel's coming persecution.
"The snake's mouth poured out a river of water behind the woman in order to sweep her away."
"River of water" (or "flood" as other translations read), is a metaphor for Israel's enemies, and it's used to depict massive numbers of them, as seen in this:
"So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him."
Isaiah 59:19 (KJV)
The picture here is of an irresistible wave of people coming at Israel, one that only God's intervention could defeat, as seen in the next verse:
"The earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river which had poured out of the serpent's mouth. The serpent became angry with the woman. So it went away to fight with her other children, the ones who keep God's commands and hold on to the testimony of Jesus."
Frustrated in his attempts to persecute the woman, Satan hurls himself at the church, both gentiles and Jews.
Rev 12:1-17 (GW)
Want to know something interesting about all of this in light of today's events?
There are roughly 195 nations in the world today (192 of them in the U.N.) 57 of these are Islamic and remain at war with Israel. That means fully 1/3 of the nations on Earth are at war with Israel right now; nations who do not recognize Israel's right to exist. These nations are governed by a pagan religious system (Islam, represented by the star and crescent moon), and many of these nations exist within the boundaries of the former Persian and Seleucid Empires, the latter of which gave rise to the first Anti-Christ, Antiochus Epiphanes.
I leave you with this:
"Another sign appeared in the sky: a huge fiery red serpent with seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept away one-third of the stars in the sky and threw them down to earth."
The stars in this passage are fallen angels who govern the affairs of men from the heavens (sky).
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Eph 6:12 (KJV)
Now, not to be too far out there, but isn't it a remarkable coincidence that a third of the angels rebelled with Satan, only to become the governing powers of the affairs of men on earth, and that now, a third of the nations on earth bow to a pagan god and vow to destroy Israel?
Coincidence? Just asking.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 12/31/2009 9:47:20 AM >
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 12/31/2009 9:48:42 AM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11819
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Do posters in here remember that this is the Preterism thread, in which is discussion about whether the End Times prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD?
It seems to be branching off into a myriad of other topics unrelated to preterism.
Just checkin'.
If you ARE discussing preterism (much of what's said here is beyond me), then carry on. If not, please take it to other threads.
Thanks!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 12/31/2009 10:00:07 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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In reference to last post, I'd like you to check out the splash screen on this link:
http://www.oic-oci.org/
It's a map of the member nations of the OIC (Organization of the Islamic Conference), and right in the middle of it sits tiny Israel.
The OIC boasts of 1.5 billion Muslims world-wide, and the number is growing. That's 1/3 of the world's countries and more than a quarter of the earth's population.
Israel's population, by comparison, stands at about 7.5 million.
"When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him."
Isaiah 59:19b (KJV)
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 12/31/2009 7:47:55 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 764
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Leonelrb.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leonelrb
Hello Retrobyter,
quote:
(Oh, and we WILL be getting back our physical bodies--"spiritual" bodies does NOT mean that they are immaterial but that they are SUPER bodies!)
Thank you very much for that great explanation. I am still struggling with the quote above. Are you saying that this physical body will be similar to the body Adam and Eve had before they sinned, or will this be a superior body? Will these physical beings be able to reproduce again?
I believe that Adam and Chavah (Eve) had better bodies than we have today, but Adam's body was inferior to the body of the "Second Adam" after Yeshua`s resurrection, according to I Cor. 15:44-49.
Will these physical beings be able to reproduce again? Frankly, I don't know. I know that we will "neither marry nor be given in marriage," according to Yeshua`, but whether that includes reproduction or not, I don't know. I rather believe that it does, but there's no proof that I know of. So, my gut reaction is to say, no, they will not reproduce, but don't take my word on it.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 12/31/2009 7:56:34 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 764
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Leonelrb.
After reading ta_mosquito's warning, I do have to admit that my posts have slid away from the main topic. Sorry, moderator.
My post is BASED on the fact that I'm a partial preterist, but it is no longer directly related. I'm going to start a new subject on Paradise, unless one already exists. I'll look first.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 12/31/2009 8:31:37 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Leonelrb.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leonelrb
Hello Retrobyter,
quote:
(Oh, and we WILL be getting back our physical bodies--"spiritual" bodies does NOT mean that they are immaterial but that they are SUPER bodies!)
Thank you very much for that great explanation. I am still struggling with the quote above. Are you saying that this physical body will be similar to the body Adam and Eve had before they sinned, or will this be a superior body? Will these physical beings be able to reproduce again?
I believe that Adam and Chavah (Eve) had better bodies than we have today, but Adam's body was inferior to the body of the "Second Adam" after Yeshua`s resurrection, according to I Cor. 15:44-49.
Will these physical beings be able to reproduce again? Frankly, I don't know. I know that we will "neither marry nor be given in marriage," according to Yeshua`, but whether that includes reproduction or not, I don't know. I rather believe that it does, but there's no proof that I know of. So, my gut reaction is to say, no, they will not reproduce, but don't take my word on it.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
The ones alive for the 1,000 years are the first to receive immortal bodies, if they are not married they will not be having children. If their population remains static then the way they 'parent' would be to the children that are born to the ones who live outside the Holy City in the New Earth. The children being born would be like grandchildren are to us.
These topics keep going back to if the 70 weeks have been fulfilled or not. I'm not sure if that point can be argued in any other thread?
< Message edited by Wayfaring Stranger -- 12/31/2009 9:08:12 PM >
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 12/31/2009 9:07:24 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
In reference to last post, I'd like you to check out the splash screen on this link:
http://www.oic-oci.org/
It's a map of the member nations of the OIC (Organization of the Islamic Conference), and right in the middle of it sits tiny Israel.
The OIC boasts of 1.5 billion Muslims world-wide, and the number is growing. That's 1/3 of the world's countries and more than a quarter of the earth's population.
Israel's population, by comparison, stands at about 7.5 million.
"When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him."
Isaiah 59:19b (KJV)
The Spirit of the Lord is Christ in this instance, that would also mean this verse will be fulfilled at that time. Arabs were in and around that region long before 1948, what on earth would that have to do with anything? This part from your reference verse would have cleared that up, "So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. ", that happens only after a show of power after He has claimed the Earth.
Isa:59:20:
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion,
and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob,
saith the LORD.
Later
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 12/31/2009 9:53:12 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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"Arabs were in and around that region long before 1948, what on earth would that have to do with anything?"
Please read this post to understand the context in which I was using the verse:
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=4687603
I was using the reference to indicate that the word "flood" is used as a metaphor for Israel's enemies, as seen here:
"The picture here is of an irresistible wave of people coming at Israel, one that only God's intervention could defeat..."
I was using the verse to make a point about a word, and referenced it later to indicate what a "flood" of enemies Israel faces in these latter days.
I know my posts are long and I'm not nearly as smart as some of you, but please try to wade through them as best you can before condemning me. :)
Thanks...
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